Thursday Morning Cup O’Chiefs
So, you have to have that first round quarterback to get anything done in the NFL, right?
Wrong.
Just look at the Carolina Panthers. This is a team that gets forgotten around the country, largely because they don’t play in a major media market and they don’t have a superstar that draws a lot of attention.
But five seasons ago they played in the Super Bowl, losing to the New England Patriots by a field goal with four seconds to play, after scoring three touchdowns in the fourth quarter. Just three years ago, they were in the NFC Championship Game, losing at Seattle. In those two playoffs, they were 4-1 playing in somebody else’s stadium.
The leader of those teams remains the same man it is this Sunday: QB Jake Delhomme.
Delhomme has been one of the NFL’s most successful quarterbacks over the last five seasons. As a starter in Carolina, he’s 45-29 including the playoffs. When Delhomme hasn’t been able to start in the last two years because of wrist and elbow injuries, the Panthers went 6-10.
And how did Delhomme come into the NFL? He arrived as an undrafted college free agent with the New Orleans Saints in 1997 out of Louisiana-Lafayette.
He spent the ‘97 season on the Saints practice squad. He spent five games on the team’s active roster in ‘98 and then went back to the practice squad. In ‘98 he went to NFL Europe and served as the backup quarterback to Kurt Warner with the Amsterdam Admirals. He went back to NFLE in ‘99 and led the Frankfurt Galaxy, coached by Chiefs QB coach Dick Curl, to the World Bowl championship.
In the ‘99 NFL season with the Saints, he started twice but otherwise did not play. He did not play in 2000 and 2001. He got on the field in four games in 2002, but did not start.
That’s when he became a free agent and signed with Carolina, where he’s been the Panthers starter when healthy ever since.
And, he’s been a successful starter, on a team that went to the Super Bowl one year and went to a conference championship game another season. In his career, he’s thrown 103 TDs and 67 INTs.
Again, let’s review: undrafted, not from a major college, started twice and played in six games over his first five NFL seasons and is now one of the most successful quarterbacks in the NFL, with a .608 winning percentage as a starter in Carolina.
In ‘98, when the Saints signed him as a free agent, there was a quarterback taken second in the first round of the NFL Draft. That was Ryan Leaf, one of the great draft busts in NFL history.
Just something to ponder for those who think the only way to win is by using a first-round pick on a quarterback.
Oh, by the way, Delhomme was named the NFC’s Offensive Player of the Week for his performance against Atlanta last Sunday.
OPPONENT NEXT/CAROLINA PANTHERS
A look at what’s gone right and what little has gone wrong in Carolina’s 3-1 season.
Checking in with Panthers coach John Fox after his team’s practice on Wednesday.
FROM THE PAGES OF CHIEFS HISTORY
On October 2, 1960, the Dallas Texans lost to the New York Titans 37-35 at the Cotton Bowl. The teams combined for those 72 points and 846 yards in total offense in one of those early games that brought the AFL the reputation for wide open football. Titans QB Al Dorow threw 4 TD passes as New York jumped to an early lead. The Texans had a couple big plays, including one that counted on a 72-yard pass from QB Cotton Davidson to RB Johnny Robinson and there was one that did not count; a 93-yard TD return of a short field goal by RB Abner Haynes that was wiped out by a clipping penalty. Haynes, Robinson, Davidson WR Chris Burford and FB Bo Dickinson scored touchdowns for Dallas
On October 2, 1966, the Chiefs lost 29-14 to the Buffalo Bills in front of a crowd of 43,885 at Municipal Stadium. At the time, it was the largest crowd for a sporting event in Kansas City history. They were disappointed that day as the Bills defense controlled the game. The Chiefs had just 51 yards rushing and battered Len Dawson and Pete Beathard with their pass rush. Kansas City scored first as Dawson connected on a 71-yard TD pass with WR Otis Taylor. Later RB Curtis McClinton caught a 13-yard TD p ass from Dawson. Those were all the points the Chiefs were able to muster. Buffalo got a pair of TD passes from QB Jack Kemp.
AROUND THE LEAGUE
Former Broncos RB Travis Henry was arrested in Denver on Wednesday and has been named as the ring leader of a cocaine distrubtion ring. He was captured after a foot chase through his suburban neighborhood.
In hopes of keeping him on the field, the Dallas Cowboys have told Pacman Jones to be less visible, especially when it comes to public events.
Al Davis said New England coach Bill Belichick tampered with WR Randy Moss before the Raiders traded him tot he Patriots. Belichick says that’s not true.
AROUND THE AFC WEST
Former Raiders head coach Lane Kiffin cancelled his press conference on Wednesday, but he did appear on Sirrius Radio and you can click here to access part of his comments.
San Diego GM A.J. Smith says he’s disappointed in his team’s inconsistent play so far this season.
Denver QB Jay Cutler knows he can’t be part of four turnovers again this Sunday when the Broncos play Tampa Bay.
too bad we no longer have NFLEurope as a developmental league, although the NCAA is essentially our farm league.
Its possible we might see more arena football qbs in the NFL. The field is shorter (50yrds) and they have to make quick decisions. At least that part translates well to what the chiefs are doing.
The truth (which many people choose not to take into consideration) is, when it comes to taking “franchise” quarterbacks at or near the top of the draft, there are far more misses than there are hits.
Since the 1998 draft, true franchise and/or Superbowl quarterbacks taken at or near the top of round 1 are few and far between. Peyton Manning, Donovan McNabb, Eli Manning, Ben Roethlisberger. Carson Palmer can be taken into consideration, but his status as “elite” can still be debated. Young guys like Philip Rivers and Jay Cutler look to be on their way, but are still working to get there.
On the flip side, we’ve got the failures. Ryan Leaf, Tim Couch, Akili Smith, Cade McNown, Michael Vick, David Carr, Joey Harrington, Byron Leftwich, Alex Smith. Add to that the current state of the careers of guys like Vince Young and Matt Leinart. That’s without dipping into the latter half of the first round, where you find guys like Kyle Boller, J.P. Losman, and Rex Grossman.
A lot of folks preach the gospel of drafting a quarterback high, even giving up a king’s ransom to trade up to do so. These people say this is how to “win”. My reply: Really?
—Tim
I like the mid-round QB technique. Brodie Croyle, if he works out even as a ‘game manager’ is a great pick in the third round. He had a great college career, and a gun for an arm.
If Croyle doesn’t work out, the Chiefs don’t need to gamble on a first round QB. They need to work on the rest of the team first, and either grab a free agent (even if he’s older) or draft a QB from the mid rounds – hopefully grabbing a diamond in the rough.
I STILL haven’t heard anyone mention Andre Woodson. Bob, have you heard ANY rumblings about Woodson? I was told during the lead up to the draft that the Chiefs were looking very closely at him… and now he’s just sitting at home. He could at least be learning the system in place of Ingle Martin, right? Anything…?
Go Chiefs!!!
Bob,
Just wondering, what are the successful percentages for drafting a QB per round and even getting one as a free agent. Obviously the Chiefs are looking to draft one of their own as of right now, so a free agent isn’t very realistic.
I happen to be a supporter of getting one in the first round simply because even though drafting any player can become a bust, the chances of getting a real game changing, team leading, big play QB, in my opinion, are much better there in the first round. He could also be the face of the francise for the next 10- 15 years and someone we as the fans could get behind and root for, much like Peyton Manning and Tom Brady are revered.
Guys…you too Bob, its about being able to evaluate a player playing that position well enough to be right many more times than you’re wrong. Our common element has been that our evaluators (Carl, Herm, Dick Curl, Marty, etc.) are not good & don’t have a good track record evaluating this position in the NFL. Herm inherited Pennington. Marty was forced to take Rivers by the GM, etc. On the other hand, look at Green Bay’s history.
Bob is right regarding his “its not how you get here” comments. He just misses the point. Its REALLY about who’s making the choice about who gets here.
I agree with kudave. You’re getting better talent in the early rounds. Sure there have been busts at QB in the first round, but there’s busts at similar rates at every position drafted in round 1. QB busts are just publicized more. ALOT more.
Jake Delhomme wasn’t some great find Bob. He bounced around all over the place from league to league. He had his moments coming off the bench for the Saints here and there his first five years and Carolina saw that potential and signed him away in free agency. This is EXACTLY what I’ve been saying the Chiefs need to do. If they don’t have the confidence to draft a signal caller in round 1 (or if there isn’t one worth taking that high) then they need to go sign someone in free agency that has shown he’s capable of playing in this league. I’m not talking Thigpen or Martin either. I’m talking about someone who has taken snaps in REAL games and has shown his ability to be a play maker and a leader.
Carolina didn’t find a diamond in the rough Bob. They made a solid veteran signing.
That’s all well and good as a philosophy, Colby, but can you name a guy like that right now in the league? Who not only fits the description you gave, but will be available to sign in the offseason?
I’m not going to discount your idea of signing a veteran, but I don’t think a team can just “go out and do it”, so to speak. I don’t want an endless parade of 35-year-old journeymen going through a revolving door at the QB position every couple of years.
It’d be great if the Chiefs could go sign a solid, game-proven veteran in the 27-32 age range, but those guys aren’t always out there.
I’m not ready to close the book on Croyle yet. I think that Brodie Croyle, behind a good offensive line and as a part of a well-rounded team, can be that solid, game-managing veteran quarterback in the years to come.
—Tim
Colby…
Carolina didnt make a solid veteran signing, they signed someone who turned into a solid veteran. Big difference. There is nothing solid about bouncing between leagues and teams.
TimInKC, I could not agree more with you on these points.
“when it comes to taking “franchise”Âť quarterbacks at or near the top of the draft, there are far more misses than there are hits.”
“A lot of folks preach the gospel of drafting a quarterback high, even giving up a king’s ransom to trade up to do so. These people say this is how to “win”Âť. My reply: Really?”
“but can you name a guy like that right now in the league? Who not only fits the description you gave, but will be available to sign in the offseason?”
“It’d be great if the Chiefs could go sign a solid, game-proven veteran in the 27-32 age range, but those guys aren’t always out there.”
“I’m not ready to close the book on Croyle yet. I think that Brodie Croyle, behind a good offensive line and as a part of a well-rounded team, can be that solid, game-managing veteran quarterback in the years to come.”
And Eli I also agree with you on the middle Rd picks, unless there is just that “ONE GUY” that is a consensus “Franchise QB”, I say you let the QB spot work it’s self out and focus on the rest of the team for the next season or two.
Tim,
Great point! I totally agree!! Player evaluation has been sadly lacking in KC for a long time. The common thread here is Carl. I don’t want to start a Carl-bashing, but his track record speaks for itself. I think our drafting has improved leaps and bounds since Herm arrived, especially compared to Vermeils draft classes, but it could be better still.
With that said, who is out there for us to hire to improve our player evaluations?
Tim -
I agree that it’s too early to throw in the towel on Croyle. I want to see how he bounces back from his latest injury and how he plays behind an improved line. He does need some legit competition as Huard is near the end of his career and has limited athletic ability.
There’s a guy named Quinn Gray that I’ve always been a huge fan of floating around out there right now who would be worth a look. He tossed 10 TDs to just 5 Ints last year for Jacksonville. Also, according to the list of 2009 free agents I have, there’s no super stars, but JP Losman, Pat Ramsey, JT O’Sullivan and Matt Cassell could all be had at a reasonable price (unless one of them steps up BIG between now and then) and they all have the talent to at least give Croyle a little competition, and give the Chiefs better insurance in case Croyle goes down again. To a lesser extent, I’d even be willing to give a one year deal to Rex Grossman or Kyle Boller just to see if a change of scenery might turn their careers around. No different than rolling the dice on the recently signed Mark Bradley. If it works, GREAT! We get the next Jake Delhomme. If not, oh well, at least they’re trying. Also, all of these QBs I mentioned are between 27-32 years old except Cassell who is younger than that.
Nick – No, there’s no difference in what you said. If you sign a guy and he works out then it’s a solid signing. No team goes out with the intention of making a crappy signing. Carolina saw a veteran with some upside that they wanted to give a shot at competing to and Delhomme came in and took advantage of his opportunities. I want the Chiefs to at least TRY to find a guy like this next year if for no other reason than to give Croyle a little competition. Herm’s always preaching competition right? Who knows? We may get lucky and nab another Delhomme.
By the way, I totally agree with Tim when he points out that having the staff to evaluate and develop QB talent is just as important as who you bring in. I’m not convinced that Herm knows what he’s doing when it comes to QBs but Herm also has had the worst luck I’ve ever seen when it comes to keeping his QBs healthy.
kudave,
In my previous post I was only speaking about the evaluation of the qb position. My opinion is that since Kuharich has returned, our drafts have markedly improved. I do believe Herm can tell about a lot of athletes & positions. That’s clear. Its the evaluation of the qb position, & the resulting decisions made about it, that the organization under Carl has failed miserably at AND its the most important position on the field.
What bothers me about Herm & Dick Curl is the roster decisions and drafting priorities they make to shore up the position. I realize they feel Croyle has the ability to potentially be the guy, but considering his apparent faragile nature, its hard to understand why you might not try to get a better #3 going into the season with so many other young players. Heck Sims was out there. Does anybody think Sims(or somebody else)wouldn’t have a higher probability to play better than Thigpen?
I just wonder if, it’s luck or is it that Herm doesn’t appreciate the value of a dominating offensive line?
There is a certain jock on a certain radio station there in KC, that likes to point out that the Chiefs [had] the highest paid O-Line in the league. Well NO DUH! Stupid!
That’s what it takes to get and keep talent in the NFL. OL Buddy
Vermeil certainly put a high priority on the O-line. He built an impressive O-line in a short amount of time.
I really don’t know why Herm/ Carl didn’t do any more for the current line with all the problems they went through last year. But with that said, I feel like we’re 1 maybe 2 players, not counting compentent back-ups away from having a solid line. I think we could grab a free agent lineman and another one later in the draft next year and be set for starters.
colby, I to wish they would sing another young guy to develop at QB, any one of those guys you mentioned (The most intelligent, athletic, and arm strength in that order) of those would be my choice. Put him on the practice squad and lets see if they can bump Thigpen out of the #3 spot in a few weeks.
I don’t think you would want to immediately move Thigpen to the practice squad, cuz lets face it were only one mishap away from having to play Thigpen, and he does know the offense. I HOPE!
I too want to see a young QB at the helm, I think if a team grows up together it’s just better in the long run.
IT would be nice if they would *sign* one!
I don’t think Herm discounts the importance of a dominant offensive line at all. It just so happened that the day before his first training camp as coach of the Chiefs, Willie Roaf retired. Following Herm’s first season as coach, Will Shields retired. Losing two Hall of Fame offensive linemen in a span of time less than one calender year can wreck an offensive line in a hurry. Herm couldn’t have done anything about their departure, and Herm arrived too late to do anything about the organization’s lack of preparation for their retirements.
Not to belabor the “drafting a quarterback high is a crap-shoot” point, but if you look at the drafts over the past decade, I don’t see many other teams that can taunt Carl Peterson for poor talent evaluation. The Chiefs’ fortunes in the draft haven’t been as different from most other teams as some people may think. Yes, the Chiefs’ drafts have improved significantly since Herm’s arrival, but I think Vermeil’s coaching regime should take a HUGE share of the blame for the team’s lack of success in the 2001-2005 drafts (which I don’t enjoy saying, as I’m a Dick Vermeil fan).
If the Chiefs can bring in a quarterback in the mold of a Patrick Ramsey or a Kyle Boller for one year at the veteran minimum, that’s great. Just don’t expect to get anything from any of them than you can’t already get from Brodie Croyle.
—Tim
TimInKc-
You are dead right about the Vermeil era coaching staff and the poor job they did at evaluating talent and value in the draft. It’s sad that after five Vermeil drafts, all we have to show for it is LJ, DJ and Colquitt. Not to put those guys down, they are the stars of the offense, defense, and special teams units respectively, but we had poor depth when Herm got here and it’s taken a while to recover. I suppose we’re still recovering.
I loved Dicky V, but his drafts kept him and us out of the Super Bowl.
Now I think were getting to guts of this.
I have a couple of points to justify my doubt in the Importance Herm places on the O-Line.
Why haven’t they done anything to help shore up the right side of the line?
I did notice where they signed a Guard,to the practice squad.
But if were trying to evaluate personnel and develop young guys, why are we not seeing B. Rich, or Wade?
I have a feeling that McT’s days as a starter at RT are #erd, when Albert gets back I suspect that Herbie will be rotated into that spot. Hopefully!
But that still leaves a gaping hole imo with Jones
at guard. And then you have to admit we are thin on OL depth.
So yeah I still “wonder” if the QB injuries are bad luck or is it something else?
Exactly Colby! We are recovering from Vermeils drafts. But it is exciting to watch the building process!! It’s almost as fun as having a great team dominate!!
LETS GO CHIEFS!!
I’m just curious, when Roaf go’s into The Hall Of Fame…..does he go as a Chief or that other team? lol
I feel we cannot blame carl for the many poor draft picks although it is his fault. I am not a chiefs insider but it seems he let one persons warped judgement decide who the picks would be. Jenkins was OL coach, Sims was D.V. through a college HC, etc. Basically carl let individuals shape his drafts not his scouts. Poor judgement. With herm we seem to do better but it will be years before the truth is apparent. It is said herm was nuts over Page at CB. It seems to be a good one. Still Brodie being the QB of the future is in question. All I am trying to say is it takes years to determine what is good or bad. As coaches change a super star may not fit the new system. Sorry but this is an area of vagueness. Dick V. got Green for a 1st, bad, well without him there would not have been the offense we saw and yet not defense. No good answer, you just have to wait, go for the ride, and one day look back.
Well, it’s not as though they haven’t tried to shore up the right side of the line. McIntosh wasn’t horrible at left tackle last season, and it was reasonable for them to assume that drafting Branden Albert to play LT and moving McIntosh to RT would be a good move. Perhaps they didn’t count on McIntosh’s legs failing him this quickly.
As for why we’re not seeing Wade Smith or Barry Richardson in there, I would speculate that it has to do with wanting to put the best 5 offensive linemen out there that we have. The right side has struggled, certainly, but they definitely played well in the victory over Denver. I, too, would like to see Herb Taylor move over to the right side when Albert returns from his elbow injury. But as important as it is to develope young players, we have had enough difficulty protecting our quarterbacks without putting less experienced players in there.
The coaches on Dick Vermeil’s staff were advocates of some pretty dreadful choices. Vermeil reportedly wanted Tyler Brayton instead of Larry Johnson in 2003 (can even the Carl-haters agree that the right choice was made there?). I’m not going to go on a rant about the Chiefs’ draft history, because a vast majority of the league has had the same hit-and-miss results, despite what people around tound try to say.
The point is, Herm and his staff have been working since 2006 to rebuild the lack of depth that resulted from 2001-2005. It takes time, and it’s finally starting to show results.
—Tim
Yeah, It’s no secrete that LJ wasn’t a Vermeil guy. But as you said someone, I don’t know who but someone stoped that madness.
As I have stated before, it all starts with the Offensive and Defensive lines. Dick V. was able to bring in one or two veterans at a good price to work into the line. It still took a while for them to play together and get really good. Still too many of his draft picks didn’t pan out and we are paying for it now. Herm has gone the other way by going young. So it will take longer for them to get good, mainly they need time playing together. I feel that Herm and Kuharich have put together some good drafts and we will soon see how they pan out. As for a QB, there are some good QB’s in back up positions out there but most are tied up in long term contracts as they were drafted high. I would not like to see us give up a lot of draft picks unless I know the guy is going to fit our system and be a good player. The top pick in the draft should be for a game changing type player, who has and can start for years, no more flash in the pan types.
http://www.arrowheadpride.com/2008/9/16/615487/selecting-college-quarterb
“The future NFL success of quarterbacks chosen in the first two rounds of the draft can be projected with a high degree of accuracy by using just two statistics from college: games started and completion percentage.”
———————————————
JP lossman will be a UFA this spring, and he might be a good option for the chiefs for a young, ‘veteran’ qb.
Hopefully, a bunch of underclass QB declare for the draft. If they do, than the chiefs would be in position to grab Stafford, Bradford, or Tebow. All 3 are franchise qbs.
Vermeil’s regime certainly did put together the best offensive line in the league in a relatively short amount of time. Some pieces were in place already, with John Tait and Will Shields, and Brian Waters an ascending player at the time.
The signing of Casey Wiegmann was genius. It was an unsung, unheralded move at the time, with people saying, “Tim Grundhard retires, and we sign a 285-pound backup center from the Bears to replace him?”. To top it all off, they send a draft choice to the Saints for Willie Roaf, and presto–Roaf, Waters, Wiegmann, Shields, and Tait. Dominance.
Herm didn’t come into as nice of a situation, and the Chiefs are still trying to make a go of it. Give them the rest of this season to sort out the guys that are already on the roster, and one more offseason to improve through the draft and free agency, and I think we can see a very good offensive line here in Kansas City again.
—Tim
findthedr said: “Hopefully, a bunch of underclass QB declare for the draft. If they do, than the chiefs would be in position to grab Stafford, Bradford, or Tebow. All 3 are franchise qbs.”
“All 3 are franchise QB’s…” …who could all be failures just as easily as they could be successful. I’m not going to brand any of them busts, just as I won’t assume any of them are going to be studs simply because they are “projected” to be by scouts. I’ve seen too many “can’t miss” quarterback prospects miss horribly over the years to believe that drafting one of the chosen “golden” quarterbacks will be the solution.
If Brodie Croyle comes back and plays poorly the rest of this season, then the Chiefs should absolutely make quarterback their top priority in the off-season. Otherwise, there are many places to continue building the team.
—Tim
Amen TimInKC!!
And IF Croyle dose flop, I would still suggest that they not trade away picks to move up in the first rd just to draft a QB. Drafting a QB in the 1st. rd. is to risky for me this year anyway.
Great link findthedr! Very interesting read.
As a Jayhawk fan, it’s a little weird to say this but I think Chase Daniel is far more than a product of the system. His lack of height will probably keep him out of the first round but he could be a round 2 steal. Very similar to what happened with Drew Brees. He put up 1st round numbers and performances, but was “too short” and didn’t play in an “NFL style” offense at Purdue. Now look at him. He’s one of the best in the league. I think Daniel is very similar and I think alot of fans around here would be thrilled to see him in a Chiefs uniform even if Croyle plays well this year.