Lessons To Remember … Thursday Cup O’Chiefs

Todd Haley didn’t want to talk about last Sunday’s game. “We’ve moved on,” the Chiefs head coach said Wednesday after practice.

Mike Brown didn’t want to talk about it either. “It’s old news,” said Brown. “We’ve moved on. It’s all about the Raiders.”


But to get a clear vision of what the Chiefs must do to beat the visitors from Oakland this Sunday, we have only a very small sample to analyze and that’s last Sunday in Baltimore.

More specifically, what happened with the Chiefs defense late in the fourth quarter? It was the critical moment in the game where the outcome hung in the balance. With 5 minutes, 21 seconds to play, K Ryan Succop put his foot into the football and sent a kickoff to the Ravens three-yard line. Chris Carr returned the ball to the 26-yard line and it was there that Baltimore began the drive.

Here is where the Chiefs defense needed to make a stand. They needed to keep the Ravens out of the end zone. They needed to make sure they got their offense the ball back with time and a chance to win the game, or at worst tie the score.

On this afternoon, the defense wasn’t up to the task. Ravens QB Joe Flacco directed the offense with a combination of runs and passes. Baltimore gained 14, 9, 2, 9, 2 and 2 yards. They got a five-yard gift when NT Tank Tyler was called for illegal use of hands.

But even with all those yards, the Ravens faced 3rd-and-8 at the Kansas City 31-yard line. There was 2:14 left in the game. The Chiefs defense needed to stop the third down play to force an attempted field goal.

Instead, Flacco beat a full-house blitz and found WR Mark Clayton open in the end zone for a 31-yard touchdown pass. The Chiefs offense got another chance, but they were thrown into a pool of piranhas with that Ravens defense. Starting at their 21-yard line, Brodie Croyle was sacked on first down and then again on fourth down.

No, it was up to the defense to make a stand. It didn’t get done.

Was it great execution by the Ravens? They are one of the top teams in the AFC. Or was it poor execution by the Chiefs defense?

Brown was willing to answer that question.

“It was poor execution by us,” he said. “It’s a simple answer, poor execution. We’ve got to play better.”

OLB Mike Vrabel agreed.

“We have to play smarter,” he said. “We played tough, but we have to play smarter and play tougher. “We have to continue to get better each week.”

Third-down defense hurt the Chiefs in Baltimore, and not just on the TD pass from Flacco to Clayton that provided the winning points. That was just one of 10 conversions in 17 attempts for the Ravens, or a 59 percent success rate.

All three of Flacco’s TD passes came on third down and two were on 3rd-and-8 plays. In fact, the Chiefs defense forced Baltimore into 10 plays on third down that needed eight yards or more to move the sticks. The Ravens converted six times; that’s a significantly high number for one of the toughest downs in football.

“We’ve got to get off the field on third down,” said Vrabel. “You can give up eight or nine yards on the first two plays, and come back and make it up on third down. We did the opposite, we did a good job on first and second down and gave it back on third down.

“Third-down conversion rate can make up for a lot of mistakes you make.”

How do the Chiefs improve their third-down defense? In the Baltimore game, a consistent pass rush would have been very effective. Flacco hit six of those third and long plays because he had time to throw. Although he hasn’t said publicly, it’s an obvious reason why defensive coordinator Clancy Pendergast sent the big blitz after Flacco on the play that decided the game.

They also must be better against the run, first, second or third down. In that winning touchdown drive, Baltimore got 24 yards on five carries. Nothing outrageous there in those numbers, but they were just enough drips to help fuel a tsunami.

All of these factors are very important against the Raiders this Sunday. Oakland hit 50 percent of its third down against San Diego on Monday night. They can keep drives alive with the running game, as their trio of backs – Darren McFadden, Michael Bush and Justin Fargas – can all run inside and outside. Chiefs fans know this, as the Raiders ran for 300 yards last year.

The Chiefs want to get past what happened in the opener. But they can’t forget the lessons of that game, and what they must do better if they hope to reverse the fortunes of this defense and the team.


  • BILLS – LB Paul Posluszny underwent surgery for a broken arm and will be out six weeks.
  • CHARGERS – signed C Dennis Norman.
  • JETS – the NFL fined the Jets $75,000, GM Mike Tannenbaum $25,000 and former coach Eric Mangini $25,000 for not reporting at the end of ’08 season that QB Brett Favre was injured with a bum shoulder.
  • LIONS – claimed OLB Turk McBride on waivers (Chiefs); McBride was claimed by the Lions, Bears and Jaguars, but Detroit got first dibs because of their 0-16 record from last season.


On September 17, 1972, the Chiefs lost their season opener to the Miami Dolphins 20-10 at Arrowhead Stadium. The Dolphins jumped to a 17-0 first-half lead as QB Bob Griese and WR Marlin Briscoe hooked up on a 14-yard TD pass and FB Larry Csonka ran 2 yards for a touchdown. Garo Yepremian added a 47-yard field goal. The Chiefs only touchdown of the game came in the fourth quarter on a 4-yard pass from QB Len Dawson to TE Willie Frazier. It was the first regular season game at Arrowhead.

On September 17, 1978, the Chiefs suffered a 26-10 loss to the New York Giants at Giants Stadium in the Meadowlands. The Giants jumped out to a 14-0 first-quarter lead that helped neutralize the Chiefs powerful running game. When FB Larry Csonka scored on a one-yard run in the second quarter, the half-time lead for New York went to 20-7. The Chiefs only TD came on a two-yard run by RB Ted McKnight. K Jan Stenerud had a 24-yard FG.

On September 17, 1990, the Chiefs lost a Monday night to the Denver Broncos 24-23 at Mile High Stadium. The Chiefs trailed 21-9 going into the fourth quarter, but QB Steve DeBerg threw a pair of touchdown passes to WR Stephone Paige of 16 and 83 yards. That gave the Chiefs a 23-21 lead. But QB John Elway led t he Broncos offense down the field and as time ran out, K David Treadwell hit a 22-yard FG for the winning points. DeBerg was 26 of 45 for 395 yards, while Elway was 14 o f 30 for 263 yards. Paige caught 10 passes for 206 yards, while Denver WR Vance Johnson had six catches for 150 yards.

On September 17, 1995, the Chiefs beat Oakland 23-17 in overtime at Arrowhead Stadium. These long-time rivals locked up in quite a battle, with the Chiefs scoring first, as WR Lake Dawson caught a 4-yard TD pass from QB Steve Bono. Later in the game, Bono hit WR Willie Davis for a 19-yard scoring play. The Raiders got a pair of 1-yard TD runs from former Chiefs RB Harvey Williams. The game went into overtime tied 17-17, when Chiefs CB James Hasty picked off a pass from Raiders QB Jeff Hostetler and returned it 64 yards for the game winning touchdown.

86 Responses to “Lessons To Remember … Thursday Cup O’Chiefs”

  • September 17, 2009  - Anonymous says:

    Look at that, one of Herm’s players got picked up. Lassie must be so happy. Of course he went from the 31st ranked def. to the 32nd, no matter he is employed, more than we can say about Lassie. Bad doggie.

  • September 17, 2009  - Jim Lloyd+ says:

    Point’s in the first half (Tyler) did that with Wildcat last year !

    Point’s instead of 3 & out’s–Sweeping to the right to avoid # 92 ,he’s going to be a problem .

  • September 17, 2009  - Harold C. says:

    Yes the Defense didn’t perform at the end of the game….yes they could have been better…..but…..look at the whole picture. The offense was on the field very little and the Defense was constantly on the field….with very little time to rest. look at the scoring from quarter to quarter. 21 of the Ravens points came in the 4th quarter…..when the Defense was worn down by having to constantly get back onto the field because the Offense could not have a sustained drive. How many 3 & outs did we have? And then there was the interception by the Defense where we ran the ball all the way down to around the 10 or something like that. Our offense scored pretty quickly and then the Defense was right back on the field again. They couldn’t catch a break. So I think the offense is equally to blame for the points that were scored against us in the 4th quarter. If our Offense can not stay on the field and give the Defense a little time to rest here and there then I expect the Chiefs will likely be scored upon a lot in the 4th quarter again this Sunday….probably resulting in our second loss.

  • September 17, 2009  - phred says:

    ComeOn Bob, it’s obvious what happened in the last 5 min. THEY GOT TIRED
    and until the offense puts together some clock eating drives, it’s going to be a problem.

  • September 17, 2009  - PriestHolmesIsCool says:

    3rd down defense was a carbon copy of last year. any time the other team has 3rd and more than 5 it’s guaranteed they will score. depressing.

  • September 17, 2009  - pkc says:

    “How do the Chiefs improve their third-down defense? In the Baltimore game, a consistent pass rush would have been very effective. Flacco hit six of those third and long plays because he had time to throw.”
    There’s the issue right there. The Chiefs have to find a way to get more pressure on the QB. It’s not coincidental that our defense totally bottomed out after the last regime decided to spend their money on a worn down RB rather than keeping one of the premier pass rushers in the league.

  • September 17, 2009  - arrowhead1978 says:


    I am stupid and dumb.

    Just wanted to throw that out there.

  • September 17, 2009  - Hawaiianchief says:

    Just wanted to give big ups to Maurice Leggett. He was getting picked on the entire game, but he hung in there and made a great pass defense on the long pass down the sideline, as well as in the endzone. He showed that he is strong mentally, not bad for an undrafted free agent from DII.

  • September 17, 2009  - jonsey says:

    Have you guys figured it out yet? Rin Tin Tin is really Gretz himself.

  • September 17, 2009  - MenInRed says:

    With our O-Line the way it is, we need to have Charles and Savage be our starting RB’s and then bring LJ in during the 4th quarter after the Def is tired and worn down some. LJ is to slow to hit the line and the small holes that do come open for a brief sec in time. With Charles speed to hit it quick and Savages size to hide behind, they both can get to the outside when needed much faster than anything LJ can do. LJ is best to pound it down thier throats after the D slows just a bit.

    GO CHIEFS!!!

  • September 17, 2009  - findthedr says:

    simple formula. Want the defense to improve? Keep them off the field.

  • September 17, 2009  - arrowhead1978 says:

    The chiefs offense isn’t on the field long enough to tire the defenses out. The Ravens offense was probably more beat up then the defense was.

    Bob, good article… It’s true that the chiefs better be on their toes this weekend or the Raiders may run for another 300 yards or more considering the defense has already given up 500 yards in the first week… Hopefully Matt Cassell starts this weekend so he can help the defense stop the run… haha

  • September 17, 2009  - Rip 'em a new one says:

    The Chief’s defense is a work in progress what with the new 3-4 scheme and guys like Brown and Vrabel being inserted into the mix. They’re still trying to find cohesiveness to play as a unit.

    It didn’t help that a playmaker like Flowers wasn’t on the field, I might add. A little better each week is a realistic goal until they all come together and become a genuine force.

  • September 17, 2009  - arrowhead1978 says:

    I LIKE DONUTS!!!!!!!

  • September 17, 2009  - ILChiefsFan says:

    I couldn’t agree more, Bob. The defense undoubtedly wore down in the 2nd half and that contributed to some big runs by the Ravens, but the fact is the Chiefs didn’t stop the run well the entire game.

    Here’s the yardage gained by the Ravens on running plays in the 1st half:
    -2, 4, 4, 6, 5, 1, 5, 4, 6

    Now Baltimore is an excellent running team, but the Chiefs are going to face a lot of very good running teams this season. The Chiefs have got to find a way to get better in this area.

  • September 17, 2009  - arrowhead1978 says:


  • September 17, 2009  - Anonymous says:

    jonsey says:
    “Have you guys figured it out yet? Rin Tin Tin is really Gretz himself.”

    Prove it then.

  • September 17, 2009  - Anonymous says:

    It’s impossible to prove a negative, and he is a negative.

  • September 17, 2009  - ILChiefsFan says:

    I’m going to eat crow and plead poor math skills on my last comment.

    I had an average of slightly above 4.0 for those 1st-half runs, but the true average comes out to about 3.6 yards per carry, which is not bad against a good rushing team. Add in two scrambles by Flacco for about 7 yards and the average doesn’t really change.

    So, get some 1st downs, offense! :)

  • September 17, 2009  - Justin Foote says:

    Well fake arrowhead1978 I like to fart and sh:t my pants!!!!

  • September 17, 2009  - Scott says:

    Good points on us stopping the run. We going to have to do it. Period. And yes, we will face a lot of good running teams this year. The good teams can all run the football effectively…with the exception being last years Cards. And have you noticed…those good running teams don’t just have one good back anymore. They have two, or three guys that can get it done. The days of a team having just one guy carry all the load are fading away.

    Too bad WE aren’t one of those good running teams. Not so far, anyway. And I’m not sure how much hope I have. To sustain some long drives, and keep our Offense on the field longer like we all know they should…we’re going to have to find a way to run the ball. Or we’re dead. It’s just as simple as that.

  • September 17, 2009  - True Red & Gold says:

    findthedr says:
    simple formula. Want the defense to improve? Keep them off the field.

    At least that way we wouldn’t have to see how bad they are.

    I have a question. If our defense was good enough to force 3 and outs most of the time would that mean that our offense would get too tired by the end of the game to perform well?

  • September 17, 2009  - ILChiefsFan says:


    I hold out some hope the Chiefs can run the ball better this week. The Ravens were the 3rd-best defense against the run in the NFL last season; jOakland was 2nd-worst in the league. Judging by their week 1 performance they’ll be better this season; we’ll see how much.

  • September 17, 2009  - ILChiefsFan says:

    “If our defense was good enough to force 3 and outs most of the time would that mean that our offense would get too tired by the end of the game to perform well?”

    Not sure, but Colquitt’s leg might just fall off.

  • September 17, 2009  - SG says:

    True R&G,

    That is an asinine question.

  • September 17, 2009  - arrowhead1978 says:


    ME TOO!!!!

  • September 17, 2009  - Scott says:


    Well, I certainly HOPE we can run on the Raiders. Bad thing is…we play some damn good Defensive teams in our first 11 games. Also, I’ll be REALLY surprised if the Raiders end up “2nd worst in the league” THIS year against the run.

  • September 17, 2009  - True Red & Gold says:

    You guys hated it that Herm was always making excuses. Well face it, our defense is just not very good. If they were good enough to force more 3 & outs early in the game when they aren’t so “tired” maybe they would not be on the field so long. It is true the offense has to find a way to stay on the field (which they are not good enough to do) but the defense has to find a way to get off the field (which they are not good enough to do).

    Cassel alone will not be the savior of this offense. He will not have as good of a passer rating this week (if he goes) as Brodie had last week.

    Speaking of Brodie, I hate to boast (ok maybe not), but I believe that I predicted way back in May that he would be starting the first game of the season. I so saw that one!

  • September 17, 2009  - Anonymous says:

    I SO saw that one? True Red & Gold, we have a no Valley girl rule on this site.

  • September 17, 2009  - Scott says:

    Anonymous says:
    “I SO saw that one? True Red & Gold, we have a no Valley girl rule on this site.”

    LMFAO!!! That was a good one.

  • September 17, 2009  - ILChiefsFan says:


    I don’t see how Cassel could have played any better in week 1 than Croyle, except for maybe 2-3 plays where Brodie made mental errors. Cassel is still an unknown quality with this offense.

    As for passer rating, I don’t think Brodie himself would top his week 1 rating if he were to start this week.

    And I second your comments on the defense as a whole. They gave up 150 yards and 10 points in the 1st quarter; that wasn’t fatigue. They need to get better, and hopefully will.

  • September 17, 2009  - True Red & Gold says:

    Hey you guys let rin on here, so I figured anything goes:)

  • September 17, 2009  - True Red & Gold says:

    And I second your comments on the defense as a whole. They gave up 150 yards and 10 points in the 1st quarter; that wasn’t fatigue. They need to get better, and hopefully will.

    Thanks, ChiefsFan, my point exactly.

  • September 17, 2009  - True Red & Gold says:

    My other point is that I make no sense and am a moron. My REAL nickname should be True Silver & Black. GO RAIDERS!

  • September 17, 2009  - ILChiefsFan says:

    Another correction, the Chiefs gave up 125 yards in the 1st quarter. No more counting-related comments for me this morning.

  • September 17, 2009  - Scott says:

    Not an excuse, really…but our Defense is still learning to play together as a unit. New guys, new scheme, guys shuffling in and out of different positions and from first team to second or third team. You need to have basically the same guys on the field most of the time…and they need to learn how to play TOGETHER. Hopefully, that will happen as time goes on.

    Actually, I could say the same thing about the O-line. And the WR’s. Not to mention QB. It’s much harder to play as a team when you have different guys in and out all the time.

  • September 17, 2009  - True Red & Gold says:

    My other point is that I make no sense and am a moron. My REAL nickname should be True Silver & Black. GO RAIDERS!

    I knew it wouldn’t take him long to pipe in. Luckily predictable enough to be ignored by now.

  • September 17, 2009  - Jim Lloyd+ says:

    Rin dosen’t get up till 10:30

  • September 17, 2009  - ILChiefsFan says:

    Scott mentioned O-line. How would everyone rate pass protection against the Ravens? It wasn’t as bad as I feared, but how bad was it?

  • September 17, 2009  - True Red & Gold says:

    Yes, ignore me! I have diarrhea in my head!

  • September 17, 2009  - Harold C. says:

    True our defense gave up some points in the first quarter…..and some points in quarter 2 & 3. The Ravens gave up points as well and we were tied with around 5 minutes left in the game. Now I ask you…..which defense gave up 14 points to win the game in those last 5 or so minutes…..the defense that had plenty of rest all game or the defense that was worn down because they were on the field almost all the time? Hmmmmmm….coincidence? No…I say no. We saw this same scenario all last year. So far it has not changed. It must change for the Chiefs to win. We need balance.

  • September 17, 2009  - Chris_Texas says:

    :) )

    Anonymous says:
    “I SO saw that one? True Red & Gold, we have a no Valley girl rule on this site.”

    LMFAO!!! That was a good one.

    I second that was good.

    I do agree Cassel will not save the Offense. The O-Line is just going to have to step it up. Although I don’t think its just aggressiveness that they lack but it couldn’t hurt. Running Backs: I stood up for LJ last week and was served crow so that will not happen again he is going to have to prove it to me but if the O-Line don’t step up we will never know. I do think if they get it together the combo of LJ and J.Charles with Battle and Savage as backups is pretty good just comes back to the O-Line. As well our front 7 on the defensive side is going to have to find that “will” to disrupt things and I think this also comes down to the DC scheming correctly and then the players executing.

  • September 17, 2009  - Anonymous says:

    Thanks, I try to make jokes occasionally (all the time). Did not know that Lassie did not wake up til 10:30, scared that you know it.
    Some good points being made today, the most important is that this team is going to take awhile to come together. Look at the Royals, constantly starting over, never progressing to the point of contention. I know the money inequity adds to their problems more than the N.F.L. with, at this time, more money parity. The Chiefs given time will come together, hate Scott and Todd if you want, but they have a plan, not five years carl, and are setting a tone for accomplishment.
    I suppose that Carl/Herm could have accomplished the same. For as we all know even a blind squirrel finds a nut every now and then.

  • September 17, 2009  - ILChiefsFan says:


    If you’re saying our defense played well but just got tired I disagree.

    Fatigue surely played into it by the end of the game, but the Chiefs gave up a 9-play drive and a 13-play drive in the 1st quarter. They got 2 3-and-outs in the 2nd, but then gave up another 13-play drive before halftime where the Ravens missed a 41-yard FG.

    The Ravens 1st drive of the 2nd half went 10 plays before the DJ interception. They had another long touchdown drive after that. It’s hard to say the Chiefs played good defense over that stretch, and it’s hard to argue that all this was due to fatigue.

  • September 17, 2009  - Scott says:

    I don’t believe Cassel will “save the Offense” either. But, I’m hoping he will add leadership to the position. As decent as Croyle played last week, I’ve never had the sense that he’s a leader…or that anyone looks to him for that leadership. Never got that feeling out of Thigpen, either. Your QB MUST be the leader out there on Offense.

    You look at a guy like Trent Green. His leadership abilities are what made him a great QB for us. It’s not like he was just blowing people away with his incredible skills, or anything. I’m hoping Cassel can be that kind of QB.

  • September 17, 2009  - el cid says:

    For some reason HC Haley decided to put square pegs in round slots, I always believed that coaches tried to get the most out of the players as opposed to trying to get them to do things they cannot do. It is the only mistake he has made during this rebuild. But it is a huge one. On defense, we cannot stop the run and the pass over the middle is always open.

    Trying to be loyal to the Chiefs is hard this sunday. Offense cannot block and the defense cannot get off the field, we may be looking at a mother of all butt kicking by raiders. They do not look like the old “garanteed to wet their pants” raiders. Gallery who is a bust looks like a all-pro compared to our Albert. Their defense has some idea of what to do. And their QB can chuck the ball if given time. The Chiefs have always made junk QB look like all pros for some reason. With an all star DL anchored by Jackson, the raiders may have 5 or more seconds to find the open guy. On and on it goes.

  • September 17, 2009  - Scott says:

    el cid says:
    “They do not look like the old “garanteed to wet their pants” raiders.”

    Very true. Raiders are an improved team.

    But, I still feel that both teams are fairly evenly matched. I think this game will be a MUCH better test for us than the Ravens game…to see where we’re really at. I’m looking forward to it. Even though there is that chance I won’t like what I see.

  • September 17, 2009  - ILChiefsFan says:

    “the pass over the middle is always open.”

    This was a problem for the Chiefs last season and in the Raven’s game, and will be a HUGE problem on Sunday if it’s not addressed. The Chief’s DC developed a good reputation for game-planning last post-season. Can come up with a plan for Zach Miller? And does he have the guys to execute it?

  • September 17, 2009  - Niblick says:

    I think we have to do everything we can to stop the run. If we need 8 in the box and leave our corners one on one against their receivers, we should do it. If Flowers can’t play, we may have to revise the plan some. I don’t think Russell can beat us, if we can control the run. He’s improved some, but not greatly. They also have some wide receivers injured which may limit them. I feel we have an big edge at QB if Cassell plays, and I think he will. I hope we can run the better. It could really help our passing game.

  • September 17, 2009  - jimbo says:

    Congratulations to Bob Gretz for hitting on a topic that has got alot of your guys “undies in a bunch”. The Ravens game is like SO over. I laughed at that one too.

    We need to keep the eye on the ball. The Ravens game was pretty disappointing until the blocked punt. We came to life and started to look respectable & I was proud of our Team’s “don’t give up attitude”. I did’nt think we had a snowball’s chance in hell to win that game. But, we did many positive things & we did put alot of doubt & anxiety in the minds of the Ravens & their fans. I also believe the Ravens don’t want to play the Chiefs again anytime soon.
    That all being said, I will judge the Chiefs in due time. The Hekyl & Jekyl responses today are quite depressing & simply confuse the hell out of me.
    The Raiders looked pretty good on Monday & they almost beat the Chargers in their own backyard.
    I’m ready for some football come Sunday. I’m all in… The Raiders are going to be tough… But not tough enough… Hopefully we will have more positive things to say this time next week.
    Go Chiefs.

  • September 17, 2009  - el cid says:

    Scott, just wondering what you saw that indicated the Chiefs and the Raiders are comparable. I say K and P the Chiefs win, QB fairly equal based on results not players, and that is about it. The Raider line on off. and def. both showed up monday nite and frankly the Chiefs look incompetent at best. LB the raiders have it hands down and DB, with injuries, I am not sure who is best. Surely you do not expect the Spec Teams to score a TD on a blocked kick every game this year? I am hopefully wrong but based on ONE and only ONE game, the Chiefs appeared to be second best, at best.

  • September 17, 2009  - Neckstomp says:

    These coaches like to work with other coaches they are familiar and get along with. The only choices which Coach Haley made prior to this season was Clancy as his defensive coordinator and keeping Krumrie as the line coach.

    I realize that this Chiefs staff was the very last staff which was put together, Haley being the last candidate interviewed and hired for a coaching position – due to his involvement with the Cardinals so late in the post season.

    But I had to swallow hard when I noticed that he was bringing Pendergast in as his def coordinator, especially after noting that the Cards defense last year was not all that awe-inspiring. My initial thought was…”Oh sh*t not another Greg Robinson clone.” And keeping Krumrie on the staff after he helped mold the line of no penetration for Harm really made no sense to me.

    The Cardinals had more talent on their defense last year than the Chiefs have this year, so…what can Clancy and his staff do any differently than Gunther and his staff could do, the previous few years?

    Well, Pioli starts by drafting and obtaining playmakers, but a guy only has so many draft choices each year and Harm and Carl left so many holes to fill in the entire team that it will take a few seasons to plug the gaps.

    When Marty, Bill and Carl took charge in ’89…they at least had the four best defensive backs in the entire league, so that wasn’t a problem area. But they had no quarterback, Okoye was on staff, and just needed to be used properly…they had an old and non-talented offensive line to rebuild. Stephon Paige was the only receiver they had of any reputation, Neil Smith was entering his 2nd NFL season after a lousy rookie year and aside from bringing DT on staff with their first round pick that years draft, they had to go out and grab other team’s castoffs to retool both sides of the line and the linebacking corps. Bill Maas was on the backside of his career, but he was still much more productive and in fact his play elevated in ’89 through ’91, when he was surrounded with playmakers like Thomas, Smith, Saleamua, Chris Martin, and Hackett along with spot play from a host of other nice draftees and free agent pickups.

    Grunhard was drafted and soon took over for the future HOFer from Pittsburg, who tried to come back one more season…but the underpinnings of a pretty good offensive line were being put into place by then.

    Dramatic turn arounds can be achieved, we here in KC who have followed this squad over the many years have witnessed it before. I don’t see this years team doing what Miami or Atlanta did last year, but the 2010 team is where I’m looking for a playoff berth and Western Division championship to spring forth.

    It starts with talent acquisition and then grooming said talent with the small tweaks necessary for the players to separate themselves from the rest of their competition. I think Haley can become like Schottenheimer, I don’t think Pendergast will ever resemble Cowher – but he’d be helped a great deal if next years draft could produce a linebacker half as productive as DT.

    heh..fat chance that.

    The last flashback up top made me remember – or at least I think I remember – wasn’t that the occasion where Schottenheimer ran onto the field and kissed Hasty in what became Amen Corner of that end zone?

    Let’s beat them farging Faiders this weekend.

    KC was rewarded in ’90 with what was arguably one of the most stout 3-4 defenses in the league that year and one of the better overall defenses the Chiefs ever fielded.

  • September 17, 2009  - Scott says:

    el cid,

    I did not see the Raiders game…so it’s hard for me to say. I would say, though, in my opinion the Ravens are a much better team than the Chargers, for one. Second, it’s a division game. Our division games are ususally tough, and close. Usually. That goes for all four teams…so I’m guessing that goes for the Chargers/Raiders game Monday.

    When you play a team twice a year, every year…you get to know them a lot better. That’s why I think we’re more evenly matched in those games. I could say the same for Denver and San Diego. The Raiders aren’t going to show us anything we haven’t seen from them before. Except Richard Seymour, of course.

  • September 17, 2009  - Jim Lloyd+ says:

    It’s about 10:30 so let the dog’s out so they can dump—-

  • September 17, 2009  - el cid says:

    Sorry but I saw much of the monday game. Seymour was a wrecking crew and if he plays over C or LT the much predicted killing the our QB may well occur. The AFC West is probably the weakest conference in the NFL. And except for the Chargers, the rest among the worse teams. At least they can compete among themselves. As for the Ravens being better than the SD, ok but just what did you see in the Ravens game. 501 yards given by the def., an offense that had one drive the entire game, one TD by special teams and one intercept returned for huge yardage. The score not withstanding, the vaulted KC Chiefs lost and lost big time to the Ravens.

  • September 17, 2009  - Alexthe"GREAT" says:

    Haleys’ offseason conditioning may be backfiring on him! True enough u want guys in shape but making the o-line lose 30-40 puns is just ridiculous!!!! Albert looked like a future all-pro last year now average 2 sub-par D-ends are just pushing him straight back collapsing the pocket b/c he’s 2 light in the ass now. I bet Haley is starting 2 second guess himself now. Go Chiefs in 2009 and Beyond!!!!!!

  • September 17, 2009  - Harold C. says:


    I’m not saying our Defense was a superior Defense or that they played like one. I’m saying that they helped keep us in the game up to around 5 minutes but were too worn out by the 4th quarter to keep us in the game any longer. The Ravens Defense was well rested since they barely had to step onto the field. It does make a difference. I’m not saying that they are a superior Defence. But they could have been adequate if the offense was more competent.

  • September 17, 2009  - Neckstomp says:

    Hey Alex…were you aware that when Waters showed up in KC to demand an audience with Haley, he was sporting 30 pounds of recently accrued fat on his frame?

    How would that make you feel, to see one of the supposed pillars of the offensive line you’d inherited – come sauntering in during your first week of settling in – and demanding to bend your ear about what’s what on the team?

    Everyone who lost 20 or more pounds of flab now needs to beef back up with muscle in place of the fat. Conditioning like Haley brought to this team, isn’t a bad thing, whatever you Herman Edwards fans of Club Med NFL believe.

    They all need to get as quick, fast and build as much stamina as they can.

    When your defense is on the field for 85 plays to defend against…that’s when the all-season conditioning pays off.

    These guys are paid such huge sums of money, they should NEVER take a day off. Their vacations can wait til they retire at the age of 35 or younger, when they can still walk or wear lace up shoes cuz they can tie ‘em, instead of loafers and sandals.

    There is no excuse for a primed 20 to 32 yr old professional football or basketball or baseball (substitute the sport of choice) to be out of shape.

    That being allowed on a team is prime reason #1 to point to fcking ineptitude by the coaching/training staff.

    Herm’s Hallmark.

  • September 17, 2009  - Alexthe"GREAT" says:

    Sun will b e a true test for Albert when he see Seymour lined up across from him! B/c in that Oak/SD game Seymour was destroying d-teams. He better take Waters out 2 dinner for the rest of the week b/c he’ll need him Sun. Go Chiefs in 2009 and Beyond!!!!

  • September 17, 2009  - Rin Tin Tin says:

    Yes Alexthe”Great”, :roll: has turned Albert from a warrior into a “any 22r” – lose the weight curb the tiger – that’s what bad coaching can do.

    He did the same for all the WRs variously: just look what’s become of ‘Q’ & the rest: now can’t catch a punt or kickoff – can’t line up right – can’t hold onto the ball & can’t stay on their feet due to falling down alot.

    Oh, and the Chiefs are now 0-5 on the season under his rudderless Gilligan leadership.

    What do you think: NFL Coach of the Year? :shock: has already sent the NFL paperwork consideration his being named GM of the Year … yup, we really hit the jackpot in Kaycee this year, only … we the fans are the ones paying…through the nose & via other orifices 0-5 auspices…


  • September 17, 2009  - ILChiefsFan says:

    el cid,

    I’ll play devil’s advocate:
    - KC actually had two scoring drives in the game; one for an FG and one for a TD. Also, KC scored two TD’s in two red zone possessions.
    - The Ravens had the NFL’s 3rd-best defense last season; the Raiders had one of the worst. How much turnaround can you expect in one offseason?
    - Hard to say how good the Chargers actually are. They were 8-8 last season and twice barely escaped being beaten by the Chiefs.
    - Most people would say Baltimore is a better team than the Raiders, many would say they’re much better. Until we see evidence otherwise, their overall defense is much better, their running game is just as good, and their passing game is better.
    - The Ravens got a cheap TD when KC was forced to surrender the ball inside their own 10 at the end of the game; if you’re going to discount KC’s INT return and blocked kick TD you have to discount this one, too.

    That said, I have two areas of concern about Sunday’s game:
    - The Chiefs have to play the run better over the course of the whole game than they did against the Ravens. We’ve discussed this to death, but a more effective offense would help the Chief’s run defense.
    - The Raiders probably have a better pass rush than the Ravens. Combine that with better corners, and we probably won’t see a 116 passer rating from the Chiefs QB this weekend.

  • September 17, 2009  - Alexthe"GREAT" says:

    Hey Neckstomp, if u ever worked out a day in your life than u would know it takes alot of time 2 put on poun ds of muscle maybe even a year 2put on 20 pounds of pure muscles!

  • September 17, 2009  - ILChiefsFan says:

    re: Branden Albert,

    Look at his bad plays (in pass protection, at least); it’s hard to argue they were due to lack of strength.

    BTW, golden boy Jake Long gave up two sacks on Sunday. It happens to 2nd-year RT’s.

  • September 17, 2009  - Chris_Texas says:

    I understand what your saying with Cassel I believe he is much better than Croyle. Infact I think given a good O-Line he could be a very solid QB. I just don’t think a perfect QB could help that much when he has to scramble and nothing but 3 step drops due to the D-Line is there by then. If your DB’s know that 1.You can’t run and 2. the ball is coming out quick it when you do throw this makes it very easy to get a jump on the ball or at least cover. Yes Cassel should have a better day and if our D-Line and LB’s (Big if) can keep the Raiders run game to a medium we could win this.

    Also not sure what someone was looking at but J.Russel sucks as a thrower his accuracy is horrible. I seen several over throws Monday Night when his WR were wide open heck a couple whent in the stands and it was not an endzone throw. The thing he does well is he is hard to take down and his line is giving him lots of time to throw so now and then when he doesn’t shank it he’ll hit someone.

  • September 17, 2009  - Alexthe"GREAT" says:

    IMO Long was highly overrated, great runner blocker but average pass blocker for a LT. Only thing I’m saying is that o-lineman are suppose 2 be hogs, thier suppose 2 grunt,slob,fart and eat more than position players. when u start wanting your lineman 2 look like models than u get players who resemble guys taht fit a Tony Mandarich physique and we all know what happen 2 him IMO!!!

  • September 17, 2009  - Anonymous says:

    Lassie, lose the weight,curb the tiger? WTF over?
    You who made fun of the current coaches for drafting a tackle, in a later round, and turning him into a guard, you should stay away from a player Herm drafted, a guard and turned him to a tackle. Go easy on him, it was one game. Try thinking about this puppy, or just try thinking, what if instead of Dorsey with the fifth pick the Chiefs would have taken Ryan Clady, problem solved. You could be using Brandon at right tackle or guard. But you know Herm you can not have enough short, underweight, bad leg defensive tackles. Bad doggie

  • September 17, 2009  - Anonymous says:

    Real quick, I meant a short, undersized def end. If he can not make it there, maybe he can try Linebacker, it worked for Turk. Right? Move on dog, the world is changing.

  • September 17, 2009  - Neckstomp says:

    Hey Alex, while I’m not a professional athlete, nor even an intramural athlete anymore, I’m 6’3″ and weigh a trim 190 pounds, and I do work out. All the time, year round…not to bulk up as I was instructed to when I was 18, 19, 20 by my strength coach at college, but to keep the inevitable flab from accruing on my aging frame.

    I also have benefited from a fast metabolism all my life and from eating good and not spending my lunch or dinner hours in the driveup lanes of McD’s, TacoHell or any of the other ickjoints.

    But, those guys who were masquerading as football players for three years under Herm, allowed to take off days and weeks of conditioning were not doing themselves any favors as far as lengthening their careers or putting themselves in any kind of condition to ‘be there’ physically and mentally on the last drive or two of a tight game in the fourth quarter.

    And if you don’t believe that, then you truly are a clueless observer.

    Albert shouldn’t have ballooned up last year, he should’ve been working out and running almost religiously, eating right all the time, and this year he might’ve shown up at 325 muscular pounds instead of 340 flabby pounds and then dropping to a more athletic 310. Same goes for all the players who let themselves go to flab, lost their wind, and let their legs fail on them in the last 10-12 minutes of games last year.

    Don’t you get how all this did not occur just in the last two years? Herm was in charge for 3 yrs and allowed it all to accumulate. Yeah it takes time to get back in shape after you talk 1, 2 or 3 yrs off.

    But it shouldn’t have been allowed to ever start happening.

  • September 17, 2009  - ILChiefsFan says:


    We’ll see how the “lighter” Branden Albert plays out. Certainly there are some successful 330-lb. LT’s in the league.

    I was somewhat encouraged by the pass protection of the O-line after watching game replays. They surrendered 3 sacks and 2 hurries against a good(not great) pass-rushing DL, but a lot of the bad plays I saw were bad technique or missed assignments.

    E.g., on the first sack surrendered by Albert the DE faked to the outside, got Albert off-balance, and just ran past him to the inside. The sack where the Croyle fumble ruling was overturned was a simple stunt by the Ravens: Suggs engaged Goff and the DE on that side looped around behind him, effectivly cutting off Ndukwe. Goff didn’t pick up the DE and he ran free to the quarterback.

  • September 17, 2009  - Rin Tin Tin says:

    Analonymous said

    “Real quick, I meant”

    - take all the time you need… won’t help as you evidence, daily

    heh heh heh


  • September 17, 2009  - Anonymous says:

    Lassie, once again, you shoot, miss again, the messenger instead of ansering the arguement. Bad doggie.
    Folks Lassie is sad and happy today. Could not help Jessica out, who can, Romo can. Lassie did find the Coyote, but was too late. Sad. Good news the Coyote and Lassie hit it off, don’t know how it will turn out when the coyote gets amorous, and finds out Lassie is not what she (he) appears to be. Bad doggie, run.

  • September 17, 2009  - ILChiefsFan says:

    Great comments today!

    “Everyone who lost 20 or more pounds of flab now needs to beef back up with muscle in place of the fat.”
    I agree, usually when you drop weight, especially over a short period, some muscle goes with the fat. From what I’ve heard about Albert’s weight fluctuations he might have 5-10 lbs of muscle to replace. That can take a few months, but it’s been that long since training camp started.

    The interesting question is, does an OT’s bulk have to be all muscle? How much fat can he carry (or lose) before it starts to have a negative impact on his game?

    “what if instead of Dorsey with the fifth pick the Chiefs would have taken Ryan Clady”
    I can’t count how many times I’ve had that same thought. Ah, hindsight.

  • September 17, 2009  - Alexthe"GREAT" says:

    I dont think it was all contributed 2 Herms doing, at the end of the day players are gonna do what they want 2 do b/c there not babies u cant sit and monitor them for 24hrs. All players arent built the same mentally thats why u have players who maximize thier potential(A.Peterson)and those who under achieve. My only gripe with Herm was he didnt have any veterans here 2 show the young players how 2 train and eat right and be professionals on and off the field. I think Herm wanted 2 be the guy the players could come 2, but it soon backfired on him b/c players abused the power Herm had given each player as a man.

  • September 17, 2009  - Neckstomp says:

    You Herm and addicts just don’t get it, do you?

    Any edge Peterson ever had, he lost after he acquired Gonzalez in that year’s draft. He never acquired (outside of Roaf falling into his lap) anyone else to help the team for a sustained period.

    And yes, I include Thug Johnson in that observation. If it wasn’t for Vermeil’s input the hi-power offense we enjoyed for a few years would never have happened, at the expense of our once strong point – the teams defense.

    Herman Edwards should never have risen above being a scout, and even then he wasn’t that much of a genius when it came to spotting talent unless it was so obvious that it jumped up in his lap and peed on him.

    Jeff fcking Webb? He gave that guy a job cuz Webb was friendly to someone Herm knew in college. Where is that wide reciever now? Where is Rocky Boiman? Where’s that kicker he drafted with the 4th round pick? Where are…(the list goes on)…Where is Carl and Gunther’s #2 – Siavii – hell for that matter where is the draft class of 2004? Allen’s with the Vikings and Keyaron is with the Steelers. Yay for them.

    Our 2003 draft class? Heh, we got a diaper wearing thug on our squad and Kawika Mitchell is sporting a SB ring for keriste’s sakes.

    It’s true that Edwards inherited a load of crap himself. But he should never even have been hired in the 1st place.

    Saunders was groomed by Vermeil and he was basically told to go screw himself by The King.

  • September 17, 2009  - Rin Tin Tin says:

    ILLChiefsFan said to Rin

    “Great comments today!”

    - you’re quite right & welcome – Rin as always aims to please & ne’er misses the mark, to the great chagrin Chiefsfandumb…

    heh heh heh!

    :lol: & :razz:

  • September 17, 2009  - Anonymous says:

    Dog, he didn’t mean you. arf

  • September 17, 2009  - Neckstomp says:

    One of these days Rin, you’re gonna log onto your crackberry or pc, forget to clear your cookie cache and post something and we’ll see what other moniker you’re using, Bob.

  • September 17, 2009  - el cid says:

    Looking forward say 4 years, there is not much on this roster. K and P aside, throw in Jackson and Magee (I really do not know why but some want to give high picks time to develope), this team may turn over 100% again. I can see where this rebuild could keep reoccurring time and again. Blame who you want this roster is unloveable.

  • September 17, 2009  - arrowhead1978 says:

    umm… I dont want to here they are still learning to play in this new defense anymore. has anyone seen the green bay packers defense this year? They switched to a 3-4 also, dont have all the players needed to play it, yet they didn’t give up a ton of yards against matt forte and cutler…

  • September 17, 2009  - SG says:

    “On September 17, 1995, the Chiefs beat Oakland 23-17 in overtime at Arrowhead Stadium”

    Ready for a repeat gentlemen without the OT? No-good-blankity-blank-stinkin’-Raiders…

  • September 17, 2009  - ED says:

    Either way this topic is water under the bridge. Anybody that knows football know the defense was on the field way too long last game. Its a team sport the offense has to the a better job of staying on the field and not going 3 and out majority of the first half. Either way its over time to move on to Oakland. Their defense isn’t nearly as good as Baltimore I expect LJ to rus over 100 yards in this game.

  • September 17, 2009  - Bakjon says:

    No matter how Seymour and the Raiders D played the other night, they had a similar result as the Chiefs. Both teams when the game was on the line could not come up with a stop. The Chargers were successful by throwing crossing patterns to the receiver opposite Asomugha. Also, they able to hit on quick hitting plays using Sproles which we could use Charles for those types of plays. Their linebackers dropped off too deep which allowed the Chargers to hit some plays as well. The only success that Oakland had was on stretch plays and up the gut plays but that changed as the game wore on.

    On defense, the Chiefs are going to have to stop the run and force Russell to beat them. He had a lousy game against KC last year but it doesn’t matter if your team can run for 300 yards. Oakland’s WRs other than Murphy are inconsistant or banged up. Also, it looks like they are scared of going over the middle so that could work in the Chiefs favor.

    Oakland got reved up because they were at home and it was a Monday night game. They didn’t want to be embarrassed like they were last year which gave them a reason to have a chip on their shoulder. Also, this year they won’t have Herm YOU PLAY TO LOSE THE GAME on the sidelines to experiment with the QBs (needing to evaluate if Thigpen can play)and downplaying the rivalry. Haley and KC will be just fine this week. KC 27 Oak 10.

  • September 18, 2009  - SG says:

    I’m gay. With male horses.

  • September 18, 2009  - SG says:

    “Trying to be loyal to the Chiefs is hard this sunday.”

    Are you a Chief or a Raider? If you’re one – you cannot be the other and thus the loyalty issue shouldn’t be too difficult for you.

  • September 18, 2009  - SG says:

    Me: 7
    Explosive, Sock-Browning Diarrhea: 42

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