Gunther Talks About Defense
After last Sunday’s overtime loss to Tampa Bay, Chiefs defensive coordinator Gunther Cunningham ran into Norma and Tavia Hunt. They asked him about the game, his defense and the season to date. Cunningham tried to explain to the First Ladies of the franchise what it’s been like in this 2008 Chiefs season trying to integrate so many inexperienced and young players into the defense.
“Tavia says it’s like begin a mother and nurturing your children,” Gunther said. “She hit the nail on the head. To go in every day and look them in the eyes in the meeting room and see them looking back and they are just waiting to soak something up.
“People around here have challenged me that I need to get on them more. I’ve told them all, go in that room look them in the eyes and see what I see. I’ve never lost respect for any coach or player on this team that’s in the room; they want to do it so badly. I don’t have to yell. I stand there in practice and watch and they are out there busting their butts.”
None more so than Cunningham, whose worth ethic is legendary. Over the last couple weeks, he’s pretty much cut off contact with the outside world. E-mails go unread. The voice-mail light has been blinking in his office for weeks. There’s no time for anything but making the Chiefs a better defensive team.
So there’s no sitting down for interviews with Gunther at this time of the year. We conducted our conversation on the run, as he walked off the practice field on Wednesday afternoon.
Give us an evaluation of where your defense is at midseason.
“They are getting better. The last two games I think they’ve turned a corner. I think the last two games having Donnie Edwards back out there has really helped us. He shows some good leadership. There are players who have gotten better and improved. The corners (Brandon Flowers and Brandon Carr) are good examples. Glenn Dorsey rushed the passer pretty damn well in this last game. We just need to finish off the game and we need to win.
“The defensive line rushed the quarterback as well as they could at this point of the season. The quarterback got the ball out very quickly and we couldn’t get him on the ground. No matter who was at tackle, we got push up the middle like we haven’t had here for a long time. I thought Pat Thomas played his best game so far against Tampa Bay. Losing Derrick Johnson hurt us. In the first half, they (Tampa Bay) couldn’t run the ball at all and he was a big part of that.
“These guys are starting to gain confidence and with these young guys, these first and second year players, when they get confident, this is going to be a really good defense.”
But I know it’s been a frustrating season for you?
“The things that I don’t understand about this year, first of all, it’s seeing teams run on us on third down, third -and-10, plays like that. That’s never happened because teams don’t do that, yet we are getting some of that. The other thing is to be plus seven in the turnover ratio. I’ve never seen that as a 28-year veteran coach, never seen a team with a losing record have that kind of turnover ratio. That’s impossible.
“Those seven turnovers in the last two weeks, you can see why the future of this defense is great. They go in and go after the ball.”
What were the factors that led this defense to struggle so much in the first half of the season?
“Understanding the scheme was big and then having so many new faces in there, six or seven guys were starting who weren’t here last year, or were not big factors in the defense last year. That doesn’t happen in one game or two. But they are starting to pick up the scheme day by day and they are making the adjustments we make every week. The base of their knowledge is growing and I think that is helping us play better defense.”
You guys are last in the NFL with four sacks. Are you getting enough pass rush pressure and just not getting the sacks or do you need to amp up the pressure on the passer?
“Early in the year because of our quarterback situation, we were playing teams that were running the football and there weren’t a lot of opportunities to rush the passer. (First six opponents threw on average 25.5 passes per game against the Chiefs. In the last two games, it’s been an average of 42.5 per game.) I think there have been some good individual rushes at times and we haven’t gotten the guy on the ground. I’m looking forward to seeing what happens in the second half of the season.”
Why is that?
“It’s just the growth and maturity of these guys. We had a personnel meeting last week and we were talking about players and I remembered how in everybody eyes last year Turk McBride and Tank Tyler were busts. I read that in the paper. People were saying those things. Now, people are starting to see from both of these guys that they can play and both of them can rush the passer. I think the more pressure we get from the inside from Glenn and Tank then those numbers will start to go up for Tamba and Turk. It takes time to grow.
“You know as much as I talk about Al Davis and some of the things that go on with the Raiders, there was one thing he taught me that has proven to be true. It takes a player three years to figure out how to play this game. We have those second-year guys and they are making rapid improvement.”
Is this group still seeking a leader, somebody to take charge on the field?
“No doubt. Absolutely. That’s why it was so interesting to see what Donnie brought to us in the last two games. From the time he went on the field in New York, there was a different feel to things. All the sudden the tide changed. It’s amazing what he’s added to us as a leader on the field. Both of us were frustrated for six or seven months around here. I got mad at him at times and he got mad and frustrated (with me), but to see him play and to see the mood change in our meeting rooms, it is drastic. You need a guy like that, that’s been there for 12 years and communicates with the other guys like he does. It’s like night and day around here since he’s stepped back on the field.”
Is it safe to say that this season has forced you to be more “creative” than at any other time in your career, especially in dealing with the psyche and confidence levels of the young players?
“I’m really proud of myself in that regard. These guys are young and you can’t treat them like you would a veteran team. I told the players that the maturity of a young player takes about three years and I told them when I realized that was about three years ago. They all broke up and started laughing.
“I look out on the field every day at practice and Donnie Edwards is the only guy who knows what used to be here and where we are going. They are all young guys with great, great ability. What you need to do is make them understand the pro game. We went to the Jets to play them and Brett Favre has 18 years (experience), Tony Richardson has 14 years, Thomas Jones has 10 years. I looked at that and went ‘oh boy this is going to be fun.’ The 18-year vet got us in the end and Jeff Garcia is the same kind of guy this last game.
“There are times I get impatient, but I go back to these guys and how hard they are working and how hard they are playing, I see the improvement and that gets me up every day.”
You mention how hard they are playing; doesn’t that eventually pay off once they figure out how to play?
“I spoke to Bruce Allen who is a good friend of mine prior to the game last Sunday (Allen is the general manager of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers.) He said, ‘Gun we can’t believe what we see on the tape.’ I asked him what he was talking about and he said ‘our whole staff marvels at how hard these guys (the Chiefs defense) play. They never worry about the score or the game, they just keep playing and they are running around like crazy men.’
“If there’s one thing I can say, I see that. I’ve been around a long time. The people of Kansas City have to hold on. It’s going to happen and when it does, it’s not going to stop.”
But there are mistakes to survive?
“Yeah, that’s true. (Maurice) Leggett is a young corner who can run really fast and is going to be an important part of this team. But he had an error at the end of the game last week and it cost us. The receiver (Antonio Bryant) had released on him (and he wasn’t in the right position.) He almost caught up to him because he runs about 4 nothing in the 40 (yards.)
“That’s what we have here and that’s what I have to understand. The thing that amazes me about this whole situation; I looked in the stands on Sunday and there had to be about 65,000 fans there. They keep coming back. It’s an emotional thing for me to talk about it. Those people in the stands they are going to reap the benefits of what’s going on right now.
“I’m not sure who the guy was but he said it wasn’t the destination, it’s the journey. You know what I say to that; I think that’s all bull. This journey is hard, it’s painful. Hopefully it will be rewarding.”
we all need to hear gun because with patience we will be atop the afc and not just the division the man from sports illustrated still calls us the lowly chiefs just no respect from the media but a true Chiefs fan sees what is coming
You have to be blind to not see that this team is in the process of something special, the foundation is being laid down. It may not happen this year, or even next year, but the Chiefs are going to represent for years to come b/c of what we are going through right now. Gun gets me fired up every time I hear him talk. I love that comment about the GM from Tampa Bay, everybody is taking notice, Bill Belichick said it, Jon Gruden said it after the game. The people that watch the film can see it. We the fans just need to be patient
You guys have to be kidding me!
Gun is the most overated D coordinator, and he needs to go. He always has excuses. His defense blew a huge lead against the Bucs to lose the game. He had Glen Dorsey dropping into coverage at the goal line. It was 3rd yr players (like Pollard) that made critical mistakes.
The Chiefs defense has given up 300yrds rushing 2x this season aldready! The D really didnt ’stop’ the run against the Bucs, but because of the KC lead, the Bucs had to abandon it and pass…which lead to 340 passing yards given up.
This is Gun’s 5th yr since being back. He hasnt turned around the defense, he has shown he is incapable of evaluating players (i.e. the FA he wanted), and nothing has worked. How many times has he gone from the booth to the sideline and back. He essentially got ‘demoted’ with Bunting coming in to consult and be the ‘eyes’ in the booth.
He is supposed to be a linebacker expert, and took on that responsibilty this yr….and the linebackers have arguably been the worst part of the defense. He converted an OLB Thomas to MLB (just like he did with Kawika)and the guy is struggling. He inexplicably benched (and then cut) the previous MLB Harris when we had virtually no depth to begin with, and while the starter has been struggling even worse. To say that Thomas has been some sort of upgrade to Harris would be an utter lie.
And then the experiment of our best DT Boone to LDE, and the switching of Hali (who was horrible at RDE even in camp) and Turk recently show he still doesnt know what the heck is going on.
Cant call it from the booth, cant evaluate, cant coach.
We have enough ugly cheerleaders…Gun has to go.
Chiefs Defensive Rankings:
Total Defense: 31st
Passing Defense: 22nd
Rushing Defense: 32nd
Scoring Defense: 28th
comparitively speaking our Passing Defense doesnt look to bad, and then you remember that the guys behind our starters (Carr and Flowers) are getting smoked. (Garcia completed 72% of his passes for 339yrds last week) Thus we just signed 2 veteran CBs.
findthedr,
Gun doesn’t choose the defensive players. Thats on King Carl and Harm, and he didn’t cut Harris either. Thats falls on Harm and Carl too.
I’m not convinced he’s the right D coordinator, but considering that Thomas has little to no talent (no dis on him) and Edwards is about to draw social security, you can’t drop the entire blame on him. Once again, I look at Carl with the 30 mil he has sitting at his disposal.
I’d have say, these are the growing pains we were warned about. I can live with dropping a 21 point lead, since you can chalk that one up to youth. It’s awful hard though to watch your team get completely shut out 2 games in a row. Thats falls on coaching.
I do agree with you though, we do have some dogs on the cheerleading team. Clunt should address that ASAP!
Your criticizing a defense with 6 new starters and a bunch of 1st and second year players. The front seven is about as young as it can get. I don’t care if you have Ed Reed in your secondary it all starts up front. If you really think Gun can’t coach you really don’t understand this sport and how much time it takes for players to develop.
Last I checked we did have a top 10-15 defense the past 2 years, we are just rebooting, with new blood and that takes time.
RedandGoldRice,
year in and out Gun has given CP a list of players he wanted and CP signed them: Kendrell Bell, harris, and Surtain are just the recent few.
hawaiian chief,
We do have alot of 1st and 2nd yr players on D, but we also have 3rd yr players like Hali that should be hitting their prime and are not.
Our starting Dline consists of a two 1st rnd, 1 second round, and 1 third round player. That are severely underperforming. Tank and Dorsey should have earned their starting positions by outplaying the former starters Boone and Edwards. Even then, when a rookie DT (dorsey) is playing 2/3rds of the defensive snaps, than the rotation is not being used effectively.
‘top 10-15 defense the last 2yrs’…what fantasy land are you coming from?
Scoring Defense has been 14th and 16th in 2007/2006th respectively. Almost everything else has been horrible.
Here is a comparison of our 2008 defense with Gun and GRob’s 2003 Defense:
http://www.arrowheadpride.com/2008/10/29/649084/the-kansas-city-chiefs-run
rebooting, rebuilding, retooling, are all BS terms to say that the D has been tremendously underperfoming for the level of talent it has on it.
Kendrell Bell, if I’m remembering right was a last ditch effort the Chiefs grabbed after the MLB they were after from Philly used us and went back. I think Harris was worth the look and we missed plain and simple. For the money we spent on Surtain (which AGAIN falls on Carl) we got screwed but there wasn’t any other choices that I can remember for cbs.
Ultimately, the blame for player evaluation should fall on Harm and Carl, but especially Carl. Thats what he gets paid to do.
As Colby says, “FIX IT”!!
Carls needs to browse some of these comments to get some pointers from us! LOL!!
your still missing the point, you can’t have 6 new starters on your defense all being young and expect to be well. As far as the defensive tackles, Albert Haynesworth is a perfect example high draft pick, he recently become dominant it took him 4 years to really start making an impact, and him stomping some guy on the head for the light to come on. Last year was his first year of dominating. Here is his stats his rookie year in 2002
16 games, 30 tackles on 1 sack. We are half way through our season and dorsey already has 22 tackles. This is Tanks 1st year starting, everybody on this board wants instant gratification. The one thing I will give you is they reached on Hali, the Linebackers will come next year, you can’t fill all your needs in one draft that is just not going to happen.
Jared Allen didn’t take off until is 4th year
thats what fantasy land I’m living on
I’m by no means calling Dorsey a bust. Or for that matter, complaining about the D. I’m just holding Carl and Harm accountable for the crap we have to live through.
Like I said, I can deal with losing a 21 point lead, but when we’re shut out, and look clueless, that I blame on coaching. Our young players need direction and I’m still not convinced we have all the coaches to do that. Especially Dick Curl.
Hey Bob any chance were gonna give Deangelo Hall a look? Those corners we picked up suck and surtain is old and slow
Surtain was a top level Corner when we traded for him, I think he has been fine (not great), especially since there has been a revolving door behind him at Safety, even in today’s games.
Hawaiian Chief is right, Gun has delivered top level Defenses at eery team he has coached at, and we were a solid defense the last two years. We could have easily been the number 1-3 defense last year if the Offense would have held on to the ball for longer than a 3 and out.
This team is making huge improvements and like I have said before, this is not the time to complain. Not yet. If we are getting killed this time next year, then, it will be time.
In the meantime, keep abandoning your season tickets, because I love how much better my seats are getting every year! I will be in a prime location when this ship gets turned!
skrappy, you know that it would probably be more cost effective for fans to abandon their tickets, and than at the time the ship gets turned to join one of the premium clubs ($$$) and than they will essentially cut in front of you in line for the better seats.
hawaiian chief,
JA had 9 sacks and 31 TKL his rookie year playing at RDE…and he wasnt even the starter till after a couple games.
Gunther Cunningham’s rap hasn’t changed for the past many seasons and it’s beyond getting old. Either you do it, or you don’t. He’s not getting it done so, post 2008? Bye, bye.
You guys are wasting your time arguing with findthedr. If the Chiefs were 7-1 right now he would have something to bitch about. He is a Donkey fan and it is best to ignore his posts.
- hawaiian chief says:
Jared Allen didn’t take off until is 4th year
thats what fantasy land I’m living on
Oh hawaiian chief…I’ve read your posts before and I think you’re a good fan who knows what’s up for the most part, but you can do better than this! JA’s numbers his first three years 31 tack/9sack, 55 tack/11sack/7FF, 77tack/7.5sack/3FF/1 INT
Jared Allen was an instant stud and only a 4th rounder.
- True Red & Gold says:
You guys are wasting your time arguing with findthedr. If the Chiefs were 7-1 right now he would have something to bitch about. He is a Donkey fan and it is best to ignore his posts.
I don’t always agree with findthedr, but he’s dead on, 100% correct about this defense and the people in charge of it. Our offense has shown improvement lately without LJ, our top 2 QBs going into the season on IR, a disgruntled Tony G, and a WR that no one else wanted (Bradley). You’re telling me that a defense with all those 1st-3rd round picks and vets with multi-million dollar deals (D. Edwards, D. Williams, P. Surtan) can’t get themselves out of the bottom 5? I don’t care how young they are, they should be playing better than this and it’s either the level of talent (which I believe is very good) or it’s the coaching and schemes.
I don’t think findthedr is a Donkey fan, he’s just a frustrated Chiefs fan who takes the numbers for what they are.
Like Gun said, unless your standing in those meeting rooms you don’t know squat!
Gunther you make alot of valid points but you still are under the gun because the Chiefs defense has been bad for so long hell I don’t remember the last time we had a top 10 rank defense. Maybe late 90s.
And to answer the questions about us being plus 7 in turnovers but still losing both games. Thats because we may create a turnover but the defense goes back out there and give up a big play for a touchdown. The problem is the defense is not creating more 3 and outs and forcing the opposing offense to punt more. WE get an interception the offense scores, but then on the next drive the defense gives up 6 points. Thats why its happening. The defense has to get off the field on 3rd downs. WE’re allowing the opposing team to convert to many third downs. The only time the defense can get off the field is when it causes a turnover. And thats not good. You can’t get a turnovers on every possesion.
I like Gun but he has to fix the tackling problems at least that. I can understand maybe the defensive line is not experience so i give u a pass on the poor pass rush. Well not really because to me that just means you need to blitz the linebackers more. Kind of like what the Bucs do in the same defense. But the poor tackling i mean come on its been the same problem for to long. If Gunther is going to stay as defensive coord. that needs to start improving now immediately.
you know what is funny to me…is people that bash personell moves all the time and the direction of your teams…when things turn around and go well, they go into hiding…
I am a (baseball)cardinal’s fan and they bashed the Cards for turning Adam Wainwright into a starter all offseason a couple years ago…and so did the media…and once he started doing awesome, you don’t hear ONE PEEP out of them…
Same goes for our Chiefs…IF this thing gets turned around and we build a dynasty because of how YOUNG we are now…you won’t hear a PEEP from all these naysayers…
We tried the 30 somethings and it got us a bunch of 9-7 seasons…I would gladly have a few 3-13 seasons and build a team of 13-3 seasons for years to come and actually WIN a playoff game or superbowl in 2011 and on…
Be Patient fans and stick by your team
And people stop making excuses for the guy. I heard someone say if they would have got off the field last yr the defense would have play better really. What about all those years Vermeil was here with the top rated offense and the defense was dreadfully the evil opposite one of the worst defenses. No excuses for this guy get it done. He’s had to many years back at defensive coord. to still be making excuses for why this defense is bad. And its been the same problem for the longest horrible against the run and poor tackling.
Fact is if i ran a retail management store. And i finish dead last or next to last in a 12 store district in sales and profits for about 5 years. The company wouldn’t continue to employ me as the manager. I mean 5 years is more than enough time to improve. I wouldn’t get by continuing to make excuses for the problem i mean in 5 years at some point i have to fix it or allow someone else take the job that can fix the problem. More than likely I wouldn’t have to ask for them to bring someone else in to fix the problem because they will just do that themselves based on my poor perfomance.
Thats all findthedr is saying about Gunther. At some point after all these years you have to eventually fix the problem. I mean if Herm went 5 years as the Chiefs head coach with 5 straight 4 and 12 season no way he would keep his job. People wouldn’t even be making excuses for the guy to keep it. To Herm credit he has taken this team to the playoffs just two years ago and was dealt a bad hand as a head coach taking over a roster that needed a major overhaul. But here’s what i say for Gunther when was the last time our defense was considered one of the best in the league. Like i said maybe when Derrick Thomas and Neil Smith was here. Thats along time ago.
At some point Gunther either has to turn it around or step aside and let Herm bring in his own defensive coordinatior. So far his hire of Chan Gailey looks to be paying off and I don’t here him making excuses about having a 3rd string quarterback he’s jus getting it done.
JA also only had 7 sacks in his 3rd year, and Tamba had 9 or 10, yah he is a stud. Yah our D sucks, i’m frustrated as hell to, but I’m not going to fire a guy for it, that I know is a good coach not with all the new parts we have in year 1 of rebuilding.
Here’s my comment to everyone.
If you’re a true Chief’s fan – be a fan. Comment if you’d like but if you are not a football coach, at any level, you do not fully understand what it takes to build a consistently, winning program. I don’t hear Gun making excuses, but I hear you all trying to interpret what he says. He is of German descent but speaks English very well so don’t try to tell us what he is saying. That being said; I do believe in results. Chan is doing what he can, with what he has to try to win games and at the least stay competitive. Gun does need to start showing more from his side of the ball or Herm needs to start looking for someone who can complete the rebuilding of the defense either from the college ranks (which they always have young players and only have the players a few years until they graduate) or a proven defensive coordinator from within the league.
Keep your eyes and ears open on what is going on in Jacksonville and Cleveland. There are two head coaches that, if fired at the end of the year, would make great coordinators.
Guess I’m going to have to make my case:
Part 1
Starting with an article from 2005:
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/chiefs/2005-08-04-kc-defense_x.htm
This is the house that defies repair. The money pit. The property with incurable defects. Replace the windows, and the roof leaks. Patch the roof, and the foundation cracks. Pour cement, and the sewer line backs up. Anyone check the windows? The wiring? The kitchen sink?
This manse gone to seed is the Kansas City Chiefs defense. It creaks, it reeks, but renovations never cease. Once more, the architects of the franchise conspire to return it to its former sturdy stature.
“We all want to fix the defense,” coach Dick Vermeil says. “Sometimes it’s not that easy.”
They have tried just about everything. Kept an embattled defensive coordinator and gave him new players. Fired the defensive coordinator, brought in a new one and kept the old players. They have refreshed the roster again with players acquired in trades, free agency and the draft.
To shore up their injury-ravaged group of linebackers, the Chiefs signed free agent Kendrell Bell and used a first-round pick on Derrick Johnson.
They signed free agent safety Sammy Knight and traded for cornerback Patrick Surtain, whose 25 interceptions during the last five seasons are third most in the league.
They traded for defensive end Carlos Hall, a speed rusher with 131/2 sacks in his three-year NFL career (with the Tennessee Titans).
——————————————-
In 2004 Gun came back without any player moves.
In 2005 Chiefs gave him the playes he wanted.
After getting those players he said,”I feel real really good. I can call any scheme in practice and have confidence that they’ll execute it. If you have a gun with six bullets, you shoot all of them. Last year, I had a gun with no bullets so now I feel totally different. It’s exciting.”
And they subsequently underperfomend, and were busts.
Gun said, “It was mostly about his coaching philosophy and the way we want to approach the season. But the rest of it was real personal. I appreciated it. No matter what is done, I’m going to be loyal to Dick Vermeil.”
Than in 2006 Herm was Hired, and Gun subsequently threw vermiel under the bus (some loyalty).
My Case Part 2.
http://nfl.fanhouse.com/2006/09/13/under-the-gun
Article from 2006
Who’s fault was it that the Chiefs’ defense failed to improve last year? Dick Vermeil? Carl Peterson? Flops like Kendrell Bell or Sammy Knight? Was the problem the assistant coaches? Was talent the problem?
Was Gunther Cunningham to blame for past failures? Never! That would be sacrilege. That’s the equivalent to shouting fire in a theatre. You should know better than that!
Enter reality. This is a new era. This is a brand new style of football. And Gunther Cunningham has to prove he can still coach in the NFL. Gunther Cunningham’s defense last year looked like a scattered jigsaw puzzle–you could see that most of the pieces were in place, but there were a few gaping holes that kept the puzzle from being complete.
I think Gunther Cunningham is a terrific coach, but his coaching last year had flaws. His lack of experience on his resume as a defensive backs coach showed (in 40 years of coaching experience, only one of those seasons was spent as a defensive backs coach, and that was in the college ranks.) I often questioned whether he knew how to utilize defensive backs in the new age of looser, zone coverages and stricter defensive holding rules. Not to mention, he has to prove that he can well utilize cornerbacks that aren’t named Carter or Hasty. There were also numerous instances where the defense would continually get beat in the same way and not make a single adjustment. He’s also not the most reliable evaluator of personnel and certainly deserves as much blame as anybody for some personnel problems, which trace as far back as his days of head coach.
There is plenty of reason for optimism, however. Herm Edwards provides to the team the experience with defensive backs that Gunther Cunningham lacks. Further, when you look at the types of players Herm Edwards brought in, like Tamba Hali and Bernard Pollard, you can just tell that all the moves had Herm Edwards’ fingerprints all over them.
Either way, while Herm Edwards has some pressure to do really well in his first season as coach for the Kansas City Chiefs, what is little publicized is that this might be a “make it, break it” season for Gunther Cunningham. If the Chiefs’ defense doesn’t right the ship this year, it could very well be Gunther Cunningham’s last year as defensive coordinator for the Chiefs.
I mean lets face it fact is Gun has to step it up. I’m never one to blame coaches when things are going bad with a team. Sometime its not the coaches fault. Players have to make plays.
BUT like my old dist manager use to say their are two reason why emplyoees under perform its either performance problem or training. When its performance then u get new employees. Which that is what they’ve done for Gunther with the defense over the years. But after you’ve changed employees or in this case players you have to look at it being a training issue. Which goes back to the guy in charge of the defense which is Gunther.
ESPECIALLY WHEN the defense has been making the same mistakes over and over again. Poor tackling and weak against the run. Go back any of my fellow Chiefs fans and watch the tape of this defense when Vermeil was here you will see the same results that you’re saying with this current Chiefs defense. Weak against the run and missed tackles. Like I said at some point if it doesn’t improve they need to all Herm to bring in his own defensive coord. Gunther is not Monte Kiffin (def. coordinator for the Bucs). When Herm got here Gunther wasn’t the leader of a hard hitting touch nose defense. He (Gunther) was the leader of a soft, cupcake, no tackling, getting ran over, giving up big plays against the run defense. At some point his job performance needs to be evaluated.
My Case part 3:
http://www.kcchiefs.com/news/2006/03/08/access_arrowhead_airing_it_out_with_gun/
Gun talks about how excited he is to work with Herm and that he gets to do stuff with a defensive minded head coach that he wasnt able to with an offensive minded head coach (vermiel).
He essentially throws Vermiel under the bus.
posts not showing up. this is a test
My case part 4:
EDWARDS: “Yeah, Gunther is a guy that I actually interviewed in New York, if you remember, before he took the job (as defensive coordinator the second time) here. I have some history with Gunther. Gunther was here when I was here as a Pro Scout. I think he’s a fine football coach.”
that.”
Edwards subsequently says that they will work together filling out the rest of the defensive staff.
hwww.noticias.info/archivo/2006/200601/20060113/20060113_135801.shtm
My Case part 5:
Early in 2008 Gun said this:
On why pass rush is the most important element of defense …
I believe you’ve got to cut the head off the snake, and the rest of the body dies. And the head of the snake is the quarterback. You’ve got to get to him. findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4179/is_/ai_n24317143
———————–
kinda ironic now that we have virtually no pass rush.
findthedr says:
“I often questioned whether he knew how to utilize defensive backs in the new age of looser, zone coverages and stricter defensive holding rules. Not to mention, he has to prove that he can well utilize cornerbacks that aren’t named Carter or Hasty.”
To me, this is the key to any point anyone can make about Gunther. Since 2004 (his first year back as D Coor) his defenses have been at best mediocre and at worst THE WORST. Back in the 90s when he was coordinating some of the best defenses in the league he was certainly aided by the fact that he had two all pros in DT and Neil rushing the passer. The key to all of that success could very well have been Dale Carter and James Hasty. In the 90s, CBs were able to mug/rape/ride/grab/piggyback/punch/hold etc to WRs within the first 5 yards from the line of scrimmage. Carter and Hasty were the best at this. The rules have changed and Carter and Hasty would not be able to get away with this now and neither do any other DBs. (Unless they’re covering Tony Gonzalez, then the refs let them do whatever the hell they want.)
Gun doesn’t seem to have adjusted well to this. He used to blitz all over the place from anywhere on the field. Now he seems almost afraid to be aggressive because he knows if the blitz is picked up the WRs have been running free for a few seconds longer and have probably gotten open. What is the solution? Well, I’m not a football coach so apparently I have no place to comment (Robert) but from what I can tell, Gunther doesn’t have the solution. He’s a the confused and frustrated old man at the bus stop that isn’t sure where he’s going.
He’s a great man and no one works harder, but sometimes, you’ve got to force retirement on the stubborn old fighter that just doesn’t know when the game has passed him by.
My Case part 6:
The stats
Chiefs Defensive Rankings:
2008
Total Defense: 31st
Passing Defense: 22nd
Rushing Defense: 32nd
Scoring Defense: 28th
2007:
Total Defense: 13st
Passing Defense: 5th
Rushing Defense: 28th
Scoring Defense: 14th
2006:
Total Defense: 16th
Passing Defense: 18th
Rushing Defense: 18th
Scoring Defense: 11th
2005:
Total Defense: 25th
Passing Defense: 30th
Rushing Defense: 7th
Scoring Defense: 16th
2004 Gun is back:
Total Defense: 31st
Passing Defense: 32nd
Rushing Defense: 12th
Scoring Defense: 29th
2003 (GRob’s last yr):
Total Defense: 29th
Passing Defense: 20th
Rushing Defense: 30th
Scoring Defense: 19th
—————-
As you can see, Gun’s defense has been bottom of the pack since he has been here. The 2008 Defense is eerily similar to GRob’s 2003 Defense, except the scoring defense is far worse now.
My Case part 7:
the quote in Gretz’s article:
“I spoke to Bruce Allen who is a good friend of mine prior to the game last Sunday (Allen is the general manager of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers.) He said, “˜Gun we can’t believe what we see on the tape.’ I asked him what he was talking about and he said “˜our whole staff marvels at how hard these guys (the Chiefs defense) play. They never worry about the score or the game, they just keep playing and they are running around like crazy men.’
———————————-
I think plenty of people would beg to differ. When you give up 300 yards rushing (not once but 2x) the Defense has quit. After the Carolina game there were plenty of pundits and even some players who think the defense quit on some of Carolina’s big runs. I’m pretty sure there are quotes out there of chiefs D players saying that other players might have quit.
“The Chiefs’ defense gave up 441 yards to Carolina, which is the most the Panthers have piled up on anyone in almost two years. And perhaps the most telling play came in the third quarter when Carolina’s Muhsin Muhammad caught a pass over the middle and outran the entire Chiefs defense to the end zone. Why was this telling? Because it seemed pretty apparent that 35-year-old Muhsin Muhammad is a lot faster than every single player on the Chiefs’ supposedly talented and fast young defense.
“¢This was the biggest blowout victory in Carolina Panthers history.”
http://www.kansascity.com/sports/chiefs/story/828254.html
My case part 8
conclusion:
This is not the first year rebuilding the chiefs defense, but something we have worked on for a long time, invested FA as well as drafted players.
In 2004 the chiefs kept the personell and brought back Gun. The defense sucked
In 2005 the Chiefs got Gun all the free agents and draft players he wanted including Bell, Surtain, and Knight. The defense sucked.
In 2006 the chiefs brought in Herm Edward who instituted the cover 2 secondary pkg, brought in ty law, boone, and edwards. The Defense improved to middle of the pack.
Since then we have drafted alot of defensive players and have made plenty of changes. Gun has gone from the booth to the sideline so many times i cant care to remember.
Gun has said that his defensive priorities are to,”stop the run, and take out the heart (i.e get to the qb).” The 2008 Defense can do neither.
Just like Boomer Grigsby, Gun can inspire with his talk, but it is more than enough time that he shows it on the field. Gun hasnt done that since Marty was holding his hand….and Marty has had good defenses everywhere he has gone since being a chief.
You guys can listen to the coaching staff make excuses all you want for young, inexperienced or whatever. I’m glad not many of you are taking to it.
Football has the same basics in every level, from pop warner through the NFL. Block, pass, punt, kick, catch, and tackle. If you see opposing teams carrying the ball…tackle him, don’t go for a knock out, and just tackle him! If the quarterback is scrambling in the pocket, get rid of your man and kill him. This is not rocket science. I have a feeling the coaching staff is making this way too complicated.
I understand there are certain schemes that the Chiefs need to prepare for. For instance, guess what San Diego is going to do this weekend? Anyone? RUN THE BALL. I hope the Chiefs can figure this out!
You guys had a point about Gunther’s problems.
But when you are still complaining this much after we held the Bucs to 3.2 yds/carry and no run longer than 10 yards, well then my BS flag goes up for the whiners.
Who, exactly, do you credit for the improvement on defense since the debacles against the Pathers and Titans? Was it Dick Curl, then?
Or was it, maybe….SATAN????? [/church lady]
Or maybe all the coaches AND players were correct and telling the truth when they said that our defensive problems were guys not filling the right gap? That would mean when they fill the right gap, Gunther’s defense does pretty good.
Why did we lose the last two games? Because they didn’t call offensive pass interference on Coles when they should have, but they did on Tony Gonzalez when they shouldn’t have. If those plays were called right, there wouldn’t be a question of defensive improvement, even those these two calls had nothing to do with the defensive playcalling.
We have more rookie starters on defense than we do on offense, and the offense is far more modular than the defense.
Bottom line: there HAS been improvement on the defense, enough that they gave us the leads that they later couldn’t hold. I think that gives Gunther some room until at least the end of the season.
Nathan of Brainfertilizer Fame says,
Who, exactly, do you credit for the improvement on defense since the debacles against the Pathers and Titans?
————-
I credit an improved OFFENSE and increased time of possession.
The bucs were held to 3.2 yrds/carry because the chiefs had a HUGE lead and the bucs had to abandon the run.
Thus Garcia completed 72% of his passes for 339yrds. We lost the game because the defense could stop the bucs, Gun had Dorsey dropping into pass coverage during a goal line stand, and 3rd yr players (like Pollard) making critical mistakes
How poor has Kansas City played against the run? Kansas City ranks last in rushing yards by 13 percent and rush touchdowns by 17 percent. The difference between the second- and third-worst run defenses is only 2.7 percent in yards and the difference between defenses that allow the second and third-most rushing scores is just 8.3 percent.
http://msn.foxsports.com/fantasy/football/story/8759162#sport=Fantasy%20Football&photo=8758594
I point out the improvement over the last two games, and you point to statistcs established 3, 4, and 6 games ago to debunk?
That makes no sense.
TOP doesn’t influence the running game in the first half. The defense does.
You make no sense again.
I just want you to see that at this point, you are so dead set against Gunther that there is nothing you will accept that could change your mind about him.
You might be right, for all that. But if you’re wrong, you’ll never see it.
Statistics don’t tell the complete story, ftd. When you’re looking at 32 defenses then stats are helpful but when we’re talking about a young Chiefs defense you have to look deeper. I’m seeing a lot of effort and a lot of recognition. These guys are learning what do and when to do it. Yes, their stats are horrible but they’re all new.
I’m not any happier with Gunther than are you today but I am seeing progress.
nathan,
you earlier point out the defensive improvement in the last 2 games as a WHOLE….which I said is attributable to the change in offense (spread), increased TOP, and scoring which helps make the opponent 1 dimensional.
you than modify it to say running game in the 1st half. Lets start with Tampa bay:
1st quarter: tampa fumbled, and kicked a FG. they had 6:56 minutes compared to the chiefs 10 minutes. score 14-3. Tampa 5 rushes (1 of which was a fumble after 3yrds) for 16yrds.
2nd quarter: Tampa was intercepted, punted, had a return for a TD, and a quick FG. total 4 minutes 12 seconds. Chiefs had 7 minutes 50 seconds TOP and added a TD and FG.
On the 1st possesion where Garcia gets INT, 2 out of the 5 plays were runs for a total of 8 yrds. Tampa bay followed that up with a 3 and out with 1 run from michael bennett of 3yrds. Finally, they return a kickoff for a TD, and on their last drive they have very little time so they abandon the run and get a FG. http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/drivechart?game_id=29648&displayPage=tab_drive_chart&season=2008&week=REG9&override=true
findthedr good point Man u sure bring facts to bag up your opinions i agree with you all the way on Gunther. YOU’re right when an offense get up on u 24 to 3 or 24 to 0 you have to abandon the run and throw the ball. That is what happen to us early in the year when larry johnson was there. WE would get down so early in the game that Larry would be on the bench and we was in shotgun the rest of the game. Case in point Titans,Panthers,Falcons, and Raiders games.
To add to what you’re saying we didnt face a team with an explosive back Sunday either. Earnest Graham and breaking away from anyone in the open field. This Sunday is a true test of the run defense because you have LT and Sproles and both guys are explosive and can make some big run plays kind of like Chris Johnson for the Titans or Micheal Turner for the Falcons.
As for Gunther situation I’m going to say this and then i’m going to leave it alone. If you are a true Chiefs fan and have been following this team you know this defense has been bad for a very long time. Long enough that if it doesn’t improves we need to make a change in the defensive coord. department plain and simple.
During the Vermeil era it was the defense that held us back. Now when Herm got here the offense became just as bad for obvious reasons, but now the offense is improving and the defense still hasn’t turned the corner. I’m not the type of typical fan that likes to blame the coaches everytime things go wrong with the team. But when you’ve been around for as long as Gunther has and have been a steward over one of the worst defenses in the league for the past 5 years you need to be on the hot seat plain and simple.
Thanks Ed.
I like to bring facts to the table so that it this doesnt turn into a ‘pissing contest’ of opinions, and is instead a rational discussion on the facts.
Although Tampa doesnt really have any explosive backs, that sure didnt stop Lendale ‘fatty’ white from running all over the chiefs while watching it on the jumbotron.
—————————–
I just wanted to point out some of the inconsistincies with the chiefs in general:
“Glenn Dorsey rushed the passer pretty damn well in this last game.”
So is Glen back to playing 3 technique? After the draft Herm said that Glen will play 3 technique (rush the passer) and then later in the season they say that his job is to take on blockers and control the gaps.
lot of flipping and flopping.
@findthedr,
I don’t disagree Gunther has struggled.
But I think the defense has shown improvement, and I credit Gunther.
When you say that the TOP caused the low Bucs rushing ypc average, you are putting the cart before the horse.
If they could have run it, they would have had a higher TOP. But we stopped them, so they had to punt. We forced them to turn the ball over, so they didn’t have as much opportunity to run it more.
Either way, it was our defense that stopped them from running. And they did that by implementing Gun’s schemes and training.
Ah, Gunther…all I want for Christmas is more line stunts and blitzes! And if you could disguise the blitzes, even just a little, tiny bit, that would be great.
http://www.arrowheadpride.com/2008/11/7/656072/please-stop-helping-dorsey
In the face of some mild criticism (and occasionally, not so mild) criticism of first-round pick Glenn Dorsey, head coach Herm Edwards stuck up for his rookie defensive tackle:
“He’s been very consistent against the run,” Edwards said, “I thought last week was one of his better games in the passing game. He’s learning the ropes, and he got a lot better last week rushing the quarterback.”
The only consistent thing about the Chiefs’ run defense is that until Sunday it had been consistently awful (we actually played fairly well against Tampa’s rushing game) so while I’m not really down on Glenn Dorsey (since he’s just a rookie and I never expect rookies to be dominant) there’s not really a viable defense to be mounted by complimenting his performance on a run defense that’s given up almost 1500 yards rushing halfway through the season. At best, that’s damning with faint praise.
Also, what about the Tampa game gave Herm the impression that Dorsey’s performance as a pass-rusher was better? Jeff Garcia threw for his season high in yardage. The Chiefs got one interception and zero sacks against the Tampa offense. All of the Tampa fumbles were made by running backs. And the Chiefs blew a 3 touchdown lead to lose because they couldn’t generate any pressure on Garcia. If there was a game to complement Dorsey getting “push” it would have been last week’s game, where Favre did see some pressure (and made most of the turnovers for his team).
Which just leads me to question again if Herm Edwards is actually paying attention to the things his team does right and wrong in each game…because his assessment of his players and team doesn’t appear to have anything to do with their actual performance on the field.