Friday Morning Cup O’Chiefs

I agree with Bob that the last three games could have been won along with the Pat’s game. The instability at QB along with the real inexperience at too many other positions have led to this Chiefs team being unable to capitalize on the turnovers and then be able to hold a lead late in a game. I still hold out hope for the rest of the season with stability at QB with Thigpen. The defense still must learn to play together better, and hold those leads late in the game. GO CHIEFS!

Fire Gunther Cunningham…

based on gun’s last 5yrs with the team (last game not withstanding), I would agree with Tim that he should be let go. That being said, I would wait till the end of the season to fully evaluate the 2008 chiefs defense and coordinators.

Matt Cassell had a heck of a game for New England. 400yrds passing, 3TD, 0 INT, 62yrd running. He is scheduled to be an unrestricted free agent next yr, and I dont know how NE can let him go. If you look at the top ranked QBs in the NFl, they are all on the wrong side of 30. Cassell has shown he can be a starter in the league.

Firing Gunther won’t solve anything.

Matt Cassell should be at the top of the list of UFA’s for the Chiefs next year. At 26 with 4 years of experience including 1 year starting, he is a prime candidate to step into a “franchise QB” role. Learning at the feet of Tom Brady and Bill Belichick doesn’t hurt either.

Until you actually win a game all we can do is talk. 1-8 suggests something is wrong over and above rebuilding. Before the season began Rick Dean suggested 6 wins were possible and would be something on the level of brilliant if achieved. Injuries asside, there is something conceptually wrong with the chiefs. Maybe it goes back to past coaches, bad drafts, or GM conflicts with players but bad karma has grabbed this team by the rear and will not let go.

I really do not want any coach fired, I just want competitive football during the rebuild then wins next season. I will not accept a team unprepared for the start of the season (major herm problem) or a team not improving as the season procedes. So all that said the last few games have been watchable and hopefully with improvement on defense some building blocks for next year.

When you look at the list of starters who have missed games and/or gone on IR, I don’t see how you can say “injuries aside”.
That’s like saying, “Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?”

The problems with our team start with the injury problems, continue through youth at key positions (youth that is clearly improving), and end at an extremely weak LB corps.

We have looked lost because:
1) Our O-line was horrible at the beginning of the season, but has gelled
2) Flowers, Carr, Leggett, are rookies who were supposed to stop Favre, Garcia, and Rivers from completing passes…and did a decent job of it.
3) Our LBs have failed to get pressure on blitzes, failed to punish WRs over the middle, and failed to prevent RBs from getting into the secondary (at least until the last 2 games).

The defense is getting better, but it is the defense that has lost several games for us.

I would be against firing Gunther at this point. In fact…since the team is improving and as long as they continue to improve the rest of the year…I think it would be unwise to fire any coach….unless they are just totally incompetent and are clearly not part of the improvement.

That was me in the above post. :/

Yeah i agree with Anonymous. If the defense continues to play like they played last Sunday I would definately keep him around. The offense just have to continue scoring six instead 3 or nothing at all when those turnovers are created. And the defense has to do a better job getting off the field on 3rd downs and not depending too much on turnovers for them to be able to get off the field. Its great that we’re getting them but on possession where we can’t get them we have to just stop the other team from getting the first down.

I want to talk about last nite game. That was an awesome game. Matt Castle played out of his mind. And that is a testiment to how good of a coach Bill Bellichick is. To have your second string quarterback in there and the Patriots to still be an over .500 teams speaks to how well coach they are. Of course he’s got good veteran players around him, but the quarterback still has to step up and make plays. Most teams wouldn’t be able to survive a season with their second string quarterback coming in there look at the Bengals. At least a 7 and 9 or 8 and 8 team with Palmer and now bottom of the cellar with Fitzpatrick. Or look at the Cowboys without Romo. YOu talk about looking like a different team.

Now that brings me to our team the Chiefs. And everyone questioning the coaching ability of Herm Edwards. In 2006 he took a last leg veteran team to the playoffs with a second string quarterback. Now in 2008 he’s taking a 3rd string quarterback and has him playing out of his mind. The offense is once again explosive. Like how they were under Vermeil. Herm haters like to say “ah we lucked into quarterback or he’s just overcoming the bad coaching.” Please there’s no such thing as overcoming bad coaching ask the Raiders. They’ve been trying to overcome bad coaching and ownership for years.

Truth is people this guy can coach. The evidence is in what u see on the field. Look at how well Herm and his coaching staff has Thigpen progressing. I mean of course its a testament to his hard work too, but it also shows the quality of the coaching. This guy is a heck of a coach. And give Herm till 2009 season and we will be competing for a division title. I like the fact we have ownership that doesn’t have a knee jerk reaction to what fans or media say or feel about the team. He understands the situation and is going to allow things to play out of the course of the next 2 seasons. Mr. Hunt your patience will be rewarded sooner than you think. This guy (Herm) is putting together one of the best young teams in Chiefs history. And there is no doubt once the puzzle is finish we will be a playoff team consistently every year after that. Like I said before the team is young and learning how to win but it want always be young. They’re growing up with every game.

Now if they can get a third string quarterback in only his first 4 starts to play like a seasoned 8yr vet. Surely by next year once the holes are field on this team in the offseason. This coaching staff can have the youthful Chiefs competing for a AFC west title next year just wait and see.

Yeah, i agree, Herm’s coaching ability is evidenced by what you see on the field. A 1-17 running record, a team that can’t win even when spotted a +3 turnover ratio, a team that can’t make proper adjustments, a team that mishandles the clock, a team that plays scared of losing… yep, that is all evidence of his coaching ability. Great point!

As far as patience, needing a 9th year to evaluate a coach isn’t patience, it’s stubbornness. I can forgive them for bringing him in hoping that all the negatives that cost him the job in New York were not all his fault, but now after 3 more years we realize they are all true and maybe even worse than advertised. Fact is, he brings NOTHING positive to game day. Talk all you want about drafting/scouting, but on game day he hurts us, and that’s when it matters most.

Agree completely with you ED. I am becoming more impressed with Gun, Chan and Herm each week. Considering the injuries and the way this team has held up, been competitive, and actually has shown improvement against pretty good teams, I think the coaches have done great. We are right on the edge of being a good team. As our injuries heal and starters come back, we will end up with some pretty good backups. Calling for firing of Gun shows no sense at all.

Keep up the great work Coach Edwards. All of KC is behind you and we know that you will lead us back to glory very soon now.

AND NOW, Clark Hunt has RE-affirmed Herm’s The Man!

As far as the injuries go, this defense is showing the concept of addition by subtraction. Pat Thomas being hurt actually improved our defense on Sunday. All Thomas did before getting hurt was get called for pass interference on 3rd and long, thus keeping the Chargers on the field. Dacus or Boiman are both improvements. David Macklin was out on the field Sunday but the Chargers didn’t really throw at him, he’s an older player, but an upgrade over Dimitri Patterson. This Sunday, if Jason Babin or Wallace Gilberry play well, they’ll be an improvement over the fantastically disapointing Tamba Hali.

Then of course, offensively, Thigpen has been the most surprising player on the team and possibly the NFL (with nods to Cassel and Matt Ryan as well). Addition by subtraction. Perhaps Barry Richardson will be a better RG than Adrian Jones. Addition by subtraction. To me, this is less an example of how effective the coaching has been (they did do great against the Chargers I’ll admit) but more an indictment of how well they judged their talent at the beginning of the season. Take it for what you will.

Hey “Herm’s the Man”, did you get bored spamming the discussion forums at the Star?

You might want to change “all of KC” to “a few people in KC” before you copy and paste next time.

First of all uncuffed you’re not being reasonable. Where the 9 years come from I don’t know if you’re talking about Herm’s coaching career 3rd most playoff appearances among active head coaches. Second you can’t blame him for 2007 because your favorite GM Peterson didn’t want to rebuild last yr. No one should have to coach a team as bad as last yr oldest team in the league and by far the worst roster assebled in awhile. In 2008 like i said who can survive losing your 1st and 2nd string quarterback so be realistic. With already the youngest team in the league. We don’t have enough veterans to overcome that. A matter fact if Castle goes down in New England the Pats want be able to overcome that.

You obviously have an agenda with the guy or u just don’t get it. We’ll see what u think of this team next yr in 2009 season. Just don’t comeback jumping on the bandwagon keep on hating.

9 years = Herm’s number of years as an NFL head coach if brought back next year

playoff appearances = joke. He’s never had more than 10 wins in a season, which doesn’t even earn a playoff spot some years. He’s also never won anything but a wild-card game, getting to the same spot a bye gets ya. Three of his four playoff appearances also came in his first two years with a team, which you just admitted he is not responsible for! You can’t have it both ways, buddy.

“not allowed to rebuild in 2007″ = Joke. What in the world would Herm have done “more” to rebuild with youth? Dump HIS guy Law earlier? Pick up more street free agents? Magically create more draft picks out of thin air?

“oldest team in NFL in 2007″ = WRONG! Check your facts, jack. They were almost two years younger, on average, than the oldest team last year. They weren’t young by any stretch, but they were relatively close to average.

Call it an agenda if you want, but i call them facts and stats. As soon as someone starts producing actual facts and stats that show Herm should be our coach, i’ll be all ears. But all this anecdotal and leaps in logic hold no weight. Eight years of Herm has provided me with a lot more negative facts than positive ones. Especially on game day and game planning.

Like Colby said, the only improvements this year came when we abandoned Herm’s wants. When we abandoned his offensive philosophy, we instantly got better on offense. When we started abandoning some of his preferred players, we got better with backups and guys off the street.

As much as I don’t like Herm as the coach, I would say we should all saddle up and see what happens, because I would put a lot of money down on the table that says he’ll be back next year. Especially if we play the way we have been. Even if we don’t win another game I bet he comes back. Now, what I would like to see is Clark stick his neck out a little bit and chop of this evil dragons head which would only grant him an entire city’s worth of respect and acceptance. He can bring in the great Coach Cowher and Cowher can have us up and going FAST. And I don’t want to hear anything about how Cowher wouldn’t come to the Chiefs, because nobody knows that for sure. I don’t know for sure that he WOULD, but I do know he is proven. The ring on his finger tells me so. If Herm is here next year then I guess the men in suits know something we don’t, but how long does this experiment last?

Well another story here is that even though this defense has forced 20 turnovers, they are still giving up 27 points a game, ranking them 27 of 32 teams.

Here’s the problem with Gunther’s defense: He preaches a bend but don’t break mentality that focuses on tightening up around the red zone. This is a great philosophy when you have Neil Smith and Derrick Thomas and Albert Lewis and Dale Carter and such, and a great offensive line that can take that ball and pound it out.

This is not so good when you are getting end zone picks or forcing fumbles at the 5, which then gives it to the not so good offense with 80+ yards to drive, then when they punt you turn around and give up a 68 yard touchdown run.

But typical Gunther, he’ll blame everyone else but himself…

Green-eyed die fledermaus- or his case La chauve-souris (because as ‘gay’ old Paris he too French) Colby strikes ‘gain, shooting not so pithy a fang his (has none), rather, arrows of unrequited love his for me.

Alas, shall have to love Rin from afar – and you do – continue then enjoy the view!

Meantime, back to the star our show -

Keep up the great work Coach Edwards. All of KC is behind you and we know that you will lead us back to glory very soon now.

AND NOW, Clark Hunt has RE-affirmed Herm’s The Man!

I’m tired of hearing about Bill Cowher. Obviously the man can coach. Nobody will dispute that. However, I want someone who will be in KC for 15 years…like Cowher was in Pittsburgh. I’m done with the 3 and out philosophy. 3 years and then out with that coach. It’s no wonder we haven’t been consistently successful since Marty.

Uncuffed, where the hell have you been all week?

Colby, Rin isn’t a real person. It’s actually one of those spam programs Herm Edwards has installed on his computer. It knows a few phrases to make it seem “legit”, but in all actuality, it’s just a dumb series of “0′s” and “1′s” that magically regurgitate what it’s told.

Well I think that the defense has shown improvement but this football team has a whole has a lot of holes in key areas. I already knew coming into the season that this was a starting over process but Herm lacks the leadership skills to tell his players in a old Marty term Focus and Finish football games. I think that he tries to hard to be all the player’s buddy. You got to install to your players that I am here to win football games not to be anybody’s buddy . Marty got respect from all his players especially when came down to crunchtime they were overworked in practices maybe thats why his failure in winning championships came about but any way I just think that Herm needs to be tougher not a spitting yeller but person that can install his point across. If you remember under Marty’s first year he was 8-7-1 and went on to a playoff run .I know he handled Larry Johnson well that is call discipline in what LJ was doing off the field but on the field you have to bring a discipline situation. I would love to see this coach succeed because he to his players has they say brings energy to them but it is not showing in finishing games. In todays game it’s about results to me this team should at least telling about the last few weeks 3-5. If this team finishes at 1-15 this to me should give Herm the axe. But I am not Clark Hunt .

That Vess is a little more what I meant to say earlier. I don’t hate Herm the man, just Herm the coach. I too would like to see him succeed, and I would root for him if you started winning consistantly. If we were to finish at 1-15 that would mean that at the end of the season we would be in the middle of yet another 12 game losing streak. There is nothing to be gained or developed out of back to back 12 game losing streaks. If Herm is going to be the Coach, I think we do need to win a couple of these last seven games. At this point, if we can’t beat the Bengals, we’re toast. Bad thing is, they’re saying the same thing about us.

thought this post would be appropriate in this thread. lol
——————
http://www.chiefswarpath.com/news/2008/11/13/hief-thoughts-chargers-time-outs-joe-posnanski/

The 1-17 Chiefs found a new way to lose, again. Herm Edwards had issues with time outs, again. Maurice Leggett has big error, again.

Chiefs 19, Chargers 20

I actually thought the Chiefs were going to pull it out. I’ve had to keep my excitement down the last two seasons, otherwise I probably would’ve had a heart attack with the Chiefs losing 17 of the last 18 games. But against my better judgment, I thought we might have a chance to start a POSITIVE streak for the great Herm Edwards by winning two in a row at San Diego.

But Herm’s team did what Herm’s team does best: gives you just enough hope to think you have a chance before brutally ripping your heart out and stomping it on the floor.

Kansas City’s Mike Cox gets his first NFL carry with the game on the line? That makes sense.

The Chiefs offense has done jack the last three second halves in a row. Why? Could it be the other team can make halftime adjustments?

The Chiefs played hard and competitive for three games? Big deal. They’re professionals, they’re SUPPOSED to play hard and be competitive.

I wonder how Brodie Croyle might have done using an offense that compliments a quarterbacks skills like the Chiefs are running now?

Time Outs

Once again Herm has issues with time outs.

At 0:26 in the 4th quarter against Tampa Bay, Herm cleverly stops the clock to give Tampa a chance to catch their breath and call a good play. The strategy fails as Tampa Bay catches their breath and calls a good play. Chiefs lose.

At 3:53 in the 4th quarter at San Diego, with Rivers sacked, no timeout is called and 40 seconds run off the clock.

At 2:24 in the 4th quarter with the clock ALREADY STOPPED, Kansas City calls a timeout.

Luckily for Herm, THIS TIME, those gaffs did not cost the Chiefs the game, but it’s nice to see Herm polish his timeout skills for a later time when it WILL cost the Chiefs a game (you know, like last week).

Don’t take my word for it, Len and Mitch could not believe the mishandling of the timeouts.

Herm blew the Jets game with the three running plays, blew the Bucs game with the timeout, and almost blew the final drive with more wacky timeout mismanagement.

Herm also almost blew the Broncos game with the spineless play-calling on the two first and goals with no attempts at the end zone, settling for field goals.

This is Herm’s main problem, he is a horrible game-day decision maker. Even if we make the playoffs next year, what has he done to show you we won’t screw it up (i.e. Colts “˜06)?

Just because the team has played hard for three straight games does not erase the fact that he is 1-17 in his last 18 games. Just because the sun shines on a dog’s ass once in a while, doesn’t mean he knows how to use time outs.

We wouldn’t even be in this position if Herm wasn’t so desperate that he let Chan Gailey call plays the way that Chan can. Before the Jets game, would you have known Mike Solari really was not with the team anymore?

The Chiefs have talent, but what they are missing is competent leadership. Most of the other bad teams last year opted to replace their loser coaches and start new quarterbacks, but the Chiefs thought they should keep the winning coach/QB combo that worked so well in “˜07. Good call!

So while Atlanta, Miami, Baltimore and the New York Jets (same coach, but new starting QB) keep winning, Detroit, Oakland and the Chiefs keep losing.

Herm “I’m an Opponent of Moving the Ball” Edwards has driven this team so far into the ground, that anything they do now seems like an improvement. A leopard can’t change his spots, and Herm is still a douche.

Okay, that is a funny article. I like the point about the timeouts. I’ve had those questions too. Isn’t Dick Curl suppose to be the clock management guru? Maybe they used German clocks in NFL Europe or something.

Didn’t really agree with the point about Leggette being such a bad decision. Exactly who would have been an improvement? Not a lot of top-notch CB’s sitting around waiting to help. You go with what you’ve got.

Not to further the Herm can coach, Herm can’t coach debate, but he does seem to struggle on game day. He seems to be a good motivator and strategist, but can’t adjust well when the plan goes done the tubes. Doesn’t matter anyway. He will be evaluated when the season is over. Who knows, everyone may be positive by then…or not.

findthe…

Excellent post, I couldn’t agree with your points any more if I tried!

Well here’s the deal on Herm. Lets be clear on something. You criticizing the guy for getting a team to the playoffs multiple times. Don’t give me this crap about him not winnning more than 10 games the fact is he got them to the playoffs. But you want to say he can’t coach. True there is no perfect coach and i can nick pick decisions Bellichick made Thursday to make him look like an incompetent coach but no one’s perfect. And i can do that to every coach in the league. Fact is you have an agenda with the guy and you don’t get it.

To criticize his philosphy thats stupid. You can say well he shouldn’t have forced his philophy on personel that doesn’t fit I understand that, but to say his philosophy is dumb you don’t know football. Its the same philosophy thats got the Titans 9 and 0 and the Giants 8 and 1 and a Super Bowl. Tough, control the clock power running game and on defense stuff the run. Now thats not going to change in this league. If you can have an dominant running game and stop the other team from running the football you going to have a dominant football team and you’re going to win in the playoffs. Now I did disagree with Herm forcing this philosphy on a team that it doesn’t fit quite yet, but the philosphy itself is what wins. I hear Chiefs fans say bring in Cowher or Marty. They believe in the same philosphy. EVen Parcells believes in it. EVer heard of Marty Ball.

Now as for Herm not being a leader and to much of a players coach totally not true. He comes from the same mold of Tony Dungy and Lovie Smith he’s not a yellar and a screamer but he gets respect and has control of the locker room. And last i check one of those coaches have a ring and the other one made a Super Bowl appearance.

Last in 2007 the roster was very old. Most of the offensive line was ready to retire the other half was old and garbage. The defense was even was old. So to answer your question yes we should have got younger last year before the season started and got more draft picks then. So by now we would be in alot better situation. Instead of going through a season losing because we’re young and inexperience we could have got all of that out the way last yr. But instead it took a bad yr like that to convince your boy Peterson that we needed to rebuild.

And to question his game planning. Looks like to me he’s doing something right to me. He has this team being competitive against veteran playoff caliber teams with a 3rd string quarterback. Maybe some of you don’t understand how good of a coaching job you have to do to actually be in games against good teams with the 3rd string quarterback guy. Hell the Rams can’t be competitive with their starter and he’s a former pro bowl quarterback. Look I can go all day about why this guy can coach in this league, but some of you have an agenda and alot you just don’t get it. I tell you what like i said keep on hating. I’m taking names and i don’t want to see any bandwagon hoping next yr. So go on go be Broncos, Chargers, and Raiders fans. Go ahead and we’ll see by the end of 2009 season and beyond who’s got the last laugh.

“Josh says: Excellent post, I couldn’t agree with your points any more if I tried!”

- thank you, as always…but do try – Rin knows you will!

Ed,

You avoided all of my points and instead addressed peripheral things that I never said:

- Herm supporters routinely criticize Vermeil for not winning a playoff game with us (although he’s been to two superbowls), yet in 2005 he missed the playoffs with a 10-6 record, Herm’s best ever. Herm supporters routinely criticize Vermeil for losing to in the divisional game in 2003, yet Herm has never won one of those either. I like how you avoided addressing your own hypocrisy of simultaneously applauding Herm’s playoff appearances in his first two years of a team and saying he’s not responsible for them when they stink.

- I never called Herm’s philosophy “dumb”. I merely said it was holding our offense back, which was immediately obvious as soon as we abandoned it. If you have the 2000 Ravens, it’s a good philosophy (except for the squatting on the ball whenever you have a lead, even if still in the second quarter!!!)

- I for one never said Herm was a poor leader, but I will agree that he is too much of a “players coach”. Any boss who tries to be “buddies” with all his employees will lack respect and discipline from SOME of his workers. He also has poor adjustment and recognition skills, which i think falls under leadership.

- Old OL and defense: Who didn’t draft an offensive linemen even after probowlers Roaf and Shields retired (could there have been a bigger/brighter sign)? That would be Herm. Who got rid of relative youngsters Mitchell, Allen and Tynes? That would be Herm. Who brought in Law, Turley, Terry, D. Edwards? That would be Herm. Much of that age falls on him.

- Draft Picks: Let me ask you AGAIN, how would Herm of magically created more draft picks in 2007 but “Carl wouldn’t let him”? Trade Allen a year earlier at the old age of 25, when his arrests were fresh, before he went sober, before he led the league in sacks, and when he would of only fetched a single 2nd rounder, at best? Honestly, since you have “inside knowledge” of what Herm and Carl wanted to do last year, tell me exactly what Herm wanted to do to get all these extra draft picks?

- Game Planning: Amazing how low some peoples expectations have gotten that merely being competitive is a victory to them. I seem to remember with previous coaches being expected (and accomplishing) being competitive in every game, not just here and there and held up as some exemplar of excellence.

Lets back up. I never criticized Vermeil. Second the only thing I was hard on Vermeil about was not improving the defense. Next the o-line getting old that happened on Vermeil watched. He was the head coach from 2001 to 2005 but never did a good job drafting players or replace the aged o-line. Matter fact we only got a handfull of Vermeil draft picks on team thats even producing. Larry Johnson and Derek Johnson are the only ones that come to mind after 5yrs of draft picks.

My expectations are not low for this team. Its realistic. You saying me lowering my expectations for this team this yr is like me saying that Obama is going to turn around the economy in his first six months. I’m be an realist thats not going to happen I don’t care who the president is. Same with this organization. It wasnt’ going to turn around in after one bad season. You’re not going to be a dominant force with the youngest team in the NFL and having to go win with your 3rd string quarterback. And having to start you 3rd and 4th string running back. So be foreal wehn you come at me with the excellence crap. My expetation is for this team to win but unlike you I know how the rebuilding process work and I didn’t come into this season expecting us to make the playoffs. Definately not after Tyler had to be the starter. What kind of football are you watching.

Lets bag up here. Yes we could have made some better moves getting more draft picks. And if we didn’t have the roster to do that well that goes to the guy who he replaced for not having better quality players in place to trade to get those draft picks.

Lets remember here. Herm didn’t inherit a up and coming young team. He inherited a team that had one of the worst defenses in the league the last 5yrs prior to 2006. He inherited an old o-line,quarterback, no receivers, and eventually and old defense besides them being bad. So he had to rebuild this team from the ground up which didn’t start untill 2008. He was forced to keep an incompetent offensive coord. Mike Solari cause Peterson felt like Vermeil offense was so successful lets keep someone who’s been in it. Second because of the 2005 and 2006 success. Peterson was hesitant in even using the word rebuild that yr. Thats if you keep up with Chiefs football you know. When reports asked about is this a rebuilding season he avoided answering the question or using the word. It took a season like that to see things Herm’s way. Get a new offensive coord. and start getting younger hince comes 12 new draft pick for 2008.

I’m done going back and forth with you and everyone else because truth is I see now you want this guy to fail. You a so called Chiefs fan but you rather see the Chiefs fail with this guy as the head coach. Then see this guy succeed as the head Coach and the Chiefs win. No matter what success he has next yr you’re still going to nick pick and find things to complain about. I tell you what find a new team go cheer from someone else. Because Herm’s the head coach and he is going to turn this thing around. Keep on hating but how about go hate on a Broncos,Chargers, and Raiders blog cause real Chiefs fans can do without guys like you.

Ed,
Vermiel inherited a crappy team from Gunther. The offense and defense sucked. Dave zott (sp?) retired. Vermiel brought in roaf, wiegmann, and welbourn to quickly turn it around.

speaking of worst defenses…where do you think our defense it right now?

if you guys want a real laugh, I mean HILARIOUS, read Bob’s latest article:

http://www.kcchiefs.com/news/2008/11/14/new_visions_for_these_coaching_veterans/
“Though the defense is now ranked No. 32 and will host the No. 1 offense in the league in New Orleans on Sunday, Cunningham sees improvement.”

Ed,

I encourage you to read the following:

http://www.chiefswarpath.com/news/2008/07/10/the-blame-game-continues/

- Vermeil inherited just as old of a team and just as old of an O-Line. He had to replace BOTH Sczott and Grunhard in his FIRST year, not spread over two years like Herm had the fortune of having. Yet somehow Vermeil was able to built one of the best o-lines in the NFL almost immediately (developed Waters, got Roaf, got Welbourne, got Weigmann).

- Vermeil Defense: Herm did NOT “inherit one of the worst defenses in the NFL”. The D was finally improving, getting to 15th in the NFL in 2005. It’s gotten worse since then. Who’s the one not keeping up with Chiefs football?

- Vermeil drafts: Yes, not the greatest, but you’re fogetting a lot of people. Herm traded Allen, so that effectively makes Brandon Albert, Morgan, and Charles thanks to Vermeil. You also forgot Colquitt. You also forgot Surtain (traded pick). You also forgot we got Robinson b/c of trading Simms. Although gone, Vermeil’s drafts also netted Roaf, Green, Vermeil, Welbourne, etc through trades. Also had Mitchell, who Herm poorly decided to let go.

- 3rd QB/RB excuse: Weren’t we doing worse BEFORE going to Thigpen and Johnson was suspended? Doesn’t that make the improvement due to the abandonment of Herm’s philosophy even that much more impressive?

- Still waiting to hear how Herm could have had more picks in 2007. By the way, people using the term “rebuilding” has nothing to do with anything. no one admits that term unless they have to (i.e. to save their jobs) b/c it hurts ticket sales.

- Questioning my “fandom”: This is the lamest comeback. I want whats best for the team. I want to go to the superbowl. If a fan thinks the team has a horrible head coach, which coarse of action makes that person a bigger fan: (1) Accepting it and hoping for the best anyway; or (2) Actually wanting something better for them and possibly a super bowl win? I say #2. Argue if you want that i’m wrong about the coach, but jumping to the false conclusion that I don’t want the team to succeed is just blind agenda-driven ignorance.

I wasn’t gone respond anymore to your foolishness but i jus had to correct you on your false information. One the Chiefs was ranked 25th in defense in 2005 and the Broncos were ranked 15th. So get your facts straight the defense was one of the worst in the league under the Vermeil era. And was at least top 5 worst defenses against the run during that time. At least the defense has a reason for being bad. They’re young and developing and if you’re watching the Chiefs they’re getting better as we go toward the end of the season. Played a hell of a game last week despite almost half of the starters being out.

Now as for both coaches success. You talking about two different philosophies in management. One when Vermeil was here we were still under the old quick fix teams. Which means bring in retread free agents to try to win a Super Bowl. Something Peterson has been trying for 19 years which still hasn’t produced a Super Bowl. This ain’t the NBA you can’t just get a bunch of veterans together and win a Championship. You have to have a mix of a few veterans, but mostly good drafts picks and build a championship team. Something it took Peterson 20yrs to realize.

NOw under Herm we’re going younger. Something this franchise have never tried to do. Use the draft to build a winning team. And not bring in overpayed free agents. We’re trying to develop a home grown quarterback versus getting another veteran backup from the 49ers like we’ve done in the past. So of course doing it the Herm way is going to take a little longer because you’re developing young players and not bringing in veteran guys that should come in and produce. So thats the difference in the two coaches. Its a difference in how management are doing things now.

And lets not forget Vermeil didn’t produce a Super Bowl here nor did he even win a playoff game. So here’s the deal lets see how this thing play out of the course of the next 2 seasons. NO more back and forth. Will just revisit this conversation next year. I’m not even going to say anything when we win majority of our games at the end of this season. We’re just going to see what happens in the seasons to come. And one us is going to be eating our words. Now as for you wanting the team to succed I never questioned that so once again you’re not getting it. I questioned you and others like you wanting this team to succeed with HERM EDWARDS AS THE HEAD COACH.

You rather see this team FAIL with Herm as the head coach than see Herm succeed and prove you and others like you wrong. Thats what makes me say you and others like you can go find another team then. Because its not about you or others like wanting to see this team win or succeed. You and others like you are totally driven by seeing this guy fail for whatever reason.

Uncuffed or JayA again. Sounds like the same junk. Yaddda yadda yadda bad herm edwards is to blame for all of your woes. Some fan your are. 3 out of 5 years Herm took the jets to the playoffs. He was the third winningest coach for them. Oh wait your gonna say how about the tuna. the tuna in his first year for the jets was 9-7 and only coached for 3 years his second year was the best at 12-4 and no superbowl. and 8-8 his last season so that wont wash. Al groh was the coach before herm he went 9-7. Look it up, your white wash is no longer. Herm took them to the playoffs in 2001 2002 and 2004 and in 2004 they were division champs all 3 times they went to the playoffs they got past the first round something vermeil never did. Blah Blah Vermeil best coach. Prove it he never did take us to the superbowl and willie roaf was one of the greatest left tackles ever in the nfl but him and shields were no longer in their prime those years. They had to retire. and because of the previous drafts we didnt have anyone that could come in and take over. some fan, you arent a fan. and the blind agenda-driven ignorance is yours. Go put your comments on the star where your ignorance is probably appreciated. The vile you are spilling is amazingly ignorant. This is the first year of the rebuild. If they play like they did at the first of this year, the first of next year then it is probably time for herm to go. until then, your vile is meaningless. Young players play like what has happened the last 3 games thats good. Now its time for them to start winning that will be good.

Ed,

Nice selective choice of ranking defenses. I don’t know about you, but pts/game is the most important stat. Sorry I didn’t clarify. In 2005 the Chiefs were 16th (forgive my “bad” memory for thinking 15th).

As far as going young vs. addressing your needs, Atlanta and Miami are proving you can do that at the same time. They had all kinds of draft picks lately and filled holes with veterans at the same time. It doesn’t have to be one or the other if you make good decisions and don’t have the lowest payroll in the NFL.

Anyway, i have no problem with going young, and i have no problem with making sacrifices to do it. I just don’t think Herm is the best option for head coach, scout or DB coach maybe, but not head coach.

I LOVE how in the same breath you say “as for you wanting the team to succed I never questioned that” followed immediately by “You rather see this team FAIL with Herm as the head coach than see Herm succeed”. Classic.

I don’t know where you base these assumptions about me from, but I’d gladly be wrong about Herm. In fact, I hope for it. If I were religious, I’d pray for it. Unfortunately, the facts tell me otherwise.

Carlm,

I’m pretty sure Herm had a losing record with the Jets, so I don’t know what you’re trying to prove by calling him the “3rd winningest coach for them”.

Also, i don’t give a rats behind about the Tuna. But if you guys are going to insist that this isn’t Herms team until his 4th year, then I guess by your logic those were Tuna’s (and Vermeil’s) playoff teams.

And a couple corrections for you:

1) The Jets did not win a playoff game in 2001

2) Vermeil did get past the first round (bye) in 2003, which is a far as Herm has ever been (loss in divisional game)

3) Jets were a wildcard in 2004, not “division champs” as you claim

So how about you “look it up”.

you forgot to mention that they were the division champs in 2002 sorry got the 2 mixed up. he had 2 loseing seasons with the jets this is true. he also had 3 winning seasons. You are correct about vermeil but how come if he was so great why didnt he take the chiefs to the superbowl.

you herm haters always throw the tuna up there and i dont get this qoute: Also, i don’t give a rats behind about the Tuna. But if you guys are going to insist that this isn’t Herms team until his 4th year, then I guess by your logic those were Tuna’s (and Vermeil’s) playoff teams. other than your saying that because carl peterson didnt let herm do what he wanted the first year that the team still belonged to vermeil. hmm confusing. and the point im making is the jets stunk and 3 out of 5 years herm was with them he took them to the playoffs. and he did win in the playoffs and he did have a division champ. Hmm that isnt confusing. herms record was 39-41 at the jets. in the 3 winning seasons he was 28-20.In his first season with the chiefs he was 48-48 with 4 appearances in the post season. then the heavily laden with lazy good for nothing veterans, he went 4-12 because he made the playoffs the year before. he was the coach and it is easy to blame him. I blame him because he didnt do what we were told he was going to do when they brought him in. that was to blow it up and get younger the first year.
Of course we really cant blame him for that we can blame peterson for that. Everyone wants to cry and scream about it. Im glad we finally have someone that will play young players. Still reserved on whether he needs to stay or not. go back to being a dolt, donks or faider fan.

I like the fact that the team is rebuilding, but I would like it better if the team were winning.

CarlM, your pulling the same ‘true fan’ crap that Carl P would. From the sound of things, you probably support him too.

I like how Herm lovers trash Vermeil for not taking us to the SuperBowl, but defend Herm for going 1-17. This is the kind of logic Herm lovers have…..none.

Uncuffed, you are fighting a losing battle. You are doing beautifully though. These guys are so in love with Herm that they can’t see the sense in opposing view points.

In the end, they actually had higher expectations for Vermeil than Herm. They won’t come straight out and say it, but comments like
“You are correct about vermeil but how come if he was so great why didnt he take the chiefs to the superbowl.” -Carlm just confirm this.

If you have/had higher expectations for Vermiel, then you obviously believe Vermeil was a better coach. I’ve never seen so much misplaced faith in a coach in ANY sport.

Man a damn bye week don’t equate to wins in the playoffs we still haven’t won a playoff game since 1993 ok. Next you would rather see Herm fail as head coach than to see him turn things around. Here’s a little thing on the Falcons because yes that is my second favorite team.

One the Falcons already had a roster full of talented players from the year before. WE’ve always had a good secondary (Milloy and Houston), Roddy White finally improved as a receiver the yr before and so did Micheal Jenkins. The linebacking core was good with Brooking and company. And we got a hell of a pass rusher with my boy Jonnie Abraham and lets not forget my boy Grady Jackson. So all that team really needed was one a franchise quarterback and two a power back which of course they brought in Micheal Turner. So the Falcons turn around really didn’t surprise me. The only thing that did was how well Ryan is playing to be a rookie. And how Turner has proved to be a starting running back in this league and not another Lamont JOrdan. That was an horrible comparison seeing that the Chiefs had way more holes to fill than the Falcons.

Next the Dolphins. Same scenerio. They already had a good defense. With Porter and Holiday Parcells knew going in the defense was preety solid. Next they needed to address the quarterback situation hence come the signing of Pennnington. Without him they would have a similar record trust me. The o-line they took care of with the signing of Jake Long. Once again can’t compare because no one on here that knows football would say our defense was better than the Dolphins last yr or in 2006.

Next here are a couple things you’re not even considering we have ran threw 3 quarterbacks this season because of injuries something neither team you mentioned had to do. And we also ran threw 4 different running backs something else neither team has been forced to do. So we you compare us to Falcons and Dolphins you really can’t compare them us because like I said neither team was really all that far away from a turn around. But like i said i can keep going but you believe what you believe because once again you want to see Herm fail as a head coach and thats a personal problem. Like i said you and people like you would rather see Herm take the Chiefs threw 2 more seasons like last yr than see him turn things around. If this was Marty or Cowher then you would probably share the same views as I have but because its not you’re being critical of the guy no matter what he does.

At the end of the day though your personal agenda you have with Herm doesn’t matter. What does matter is him getting things turned around no matter if you or people like you like him as a head coach or a person.

ED

The people on here who don’t like Herm have presented facts and stats along with their opinions on Herm. This does not qualify as an “agenda.” Your support of Herm is closer to the term “agenda”, only you are on the pro-side. You offer fewer facts and more faith in your posts (concerning Edwards time in KC) than the anti-Herm folks do. I have no issues with people who like and support Herm as a head coach, but to accuse people of having an agenda is silly, especially since you seem to have one yourself.

Uncuffed and Colby, you’re absolutely right. This IS a losing battle. These guys are willing to let Herm run this team into the ground the way Matt Millen ran the Lions into the ground and the way that Al Davis has run the Raiders into the ground for the past six years. It’s okay to like Herm as a person. I was on the elevator with him last week going to a doctor’s appointment and he’s a very personable guy. The fact of the matter is, he’s won ONE GAME IN THE PAST YEAR. That stat alone would get many other coaches canned…look at Gunther. he got sacked after his second season going 7-9…Schottenheimer “stepped down” in ’97 after a similar effort. How is it that ten years later, we aren’t calling for the head of someone who has been the paragon of ineptitude when we were so ready to can Marty for ONE losing season?

And Rin, I will never agree with anything you say. I couldn’t do enough drugs to be THAT delusional. Good try though.

Ed,

The players you mention support one of my points about Atlanta and Miami, so thanks!

Most the guys you mention were FA signings since 2006 (when Herm became head coach of the Chiefs). This goes to show how you need to build using ALL aspects of team building, not just “drafting and hoping” like the Chiefs are doing the last few years. Milloy, Jackson, Abraham, and Turner were all signed as FA’s in 2006 or later, so if those are the best players in your own admitted opinion, don’t try to tell us that Atlanta had a better base talent set than Herm got.

Same with the Dolphins, Porter, Holliday, Pennington are all old free agent signings to fill the final holes and have a complete team. So again, proof that you can do both at once. Build for the future and the present at the same time. Be competitive while you rebuild/retool. Especially with the cap not being an issue these days.

Of course, you conveniently forget the talent set Herm did inherit, namely Tony G., LJ, DJ, Allen, Colquitt, Waters, Shields, etc. But that doesn’t fit into your “agenda” of hope and faith in Herm and ignoring of facts.

“And Rin”

- yes my little shadow (who cries ‘Shane! Come back Shane! when’er I try and leave him…)

“I will never agree with anything you say.”

- I’m (almost) unspeakably wounded (sniff); now let go of my ankle…

“I couldn’t do enough drugs to be THAT delusional.”

- like little Bill(y Clinton), you didn’t inhale (too much) huh…

heh heh heh

: )

You can mention Roaf and Shields neither are there on the team. Look you have your agenda and thats fine. You also have the right to go be a fan of another team while Herm’s the head coach. Next we chose use solely the draft to get better. Just like the Giants did. The only guy that made the core of their roster when they won the Super Bowl was Plaxico Burress.

Can you do both yes but we’re choosing to mostly use the draft which I don’t see anything wrong with that because that just means you’re going to have more players be good for along time. And lets not forget we are adding players through free agency Bradley has fit in nicely and so has Demmaro Williams when healthy. Next what you’re not admiting is that during Atlanta and Dolphins rebuild both Smith and Sparano inherited teams that really wasn’t that far away from being good. Where as Kansas City on the other hand need major rehauling. From the o-line, to receivers, and the entire defense. And give Herm credit with the players he did inherit he got them to the playoffs. He didn’t have anything beyond 2006 to build on. Thats what we’re trying to establish in 2008.

Look dude I’m done with this discussion you’re going to twist things in your favor no matter what because for what some reason you get a hard on from watching Herm fail as the head coach of this team. And thats fine. You just don’t have to be a Chiefs fan while he’s here.

Who mentioned Roaf?

Some of you are so fickle. You’d really go be a fan of a different team if you thought the current head coach was bad at his job? That’s crazy and shallow. I’m sorry, but the brief tenure of a bum head coach isn’t going to effect my love for a team i’ve followed since i was old enough to follow football. At the same time, my love for the team won’t let me stand by silently while it hurts itself.

Or are you saying that fans just aren’t allowed to believe the head coach sucks under any circumstances or sets of facts? We should all just lap up the milk fed to us at the alter of Herm no matter what?

Look josh,colby, and uncuffed. Like i’ve said before we will see next yr and the years beyond. No more back and forth you guys have your opinions and the rest of us have ours. I don’t have any agenda with Herm i’m just a realist. I understand football. I understood our situation. Just like Vermeil understood this team would need major overhauling which he didn’t want to stick around to re do.

Every team when rebuilding goes through season like this. The Giants 5 and 11 in 2004 and 2005 season they went 4 and 12. The Titans 2003 4 and 12 and in 2004 5 and 11. So its our turn. Don’t blame that is having to take the losses because we had a former coach and GM who couldn’t bring in young talent to keep the winning seasons going. Herm is the guy having to do the dirty work that Vermeil didn’t have the patience or time to do. He didn’t want to ruin his reputation by staying here doing this major overhaul to the team.

But its ok. Like i’ve said before we will see next yr. While Herm’s the head coach go be a fan of someone else. All of you Herm haters for that matter. The only facts you can present is he’s 1 and 16 but you fell look at why he’s 1 and 16. Larry missed all of last yr. THe o-line was old and garbage. No receivers. This yr 3 different quarterbacks due to injury. 4 different guys at running back and factor in we’re the youngest team in the league.

You guys make me laugh because all that is wrong with the team you blame him for. But you don’t give him credit for the things that go right. And once again thats an agenda or you guys just don’t get it. I have no agenda for Herm. If he has a 4 and 12 or 5 and 11 or worse season next yr I”m going to be pissed and I’m going to be calling for his head. But i’m not going to judge him in the 1st real year of the rebuild. Neither am I going to blame him for that horrible roster he had to bring back after the 2006 season.

What do I blame Herm for putting too much faith in Brodie. But i give him credit for going and getting Tyler. I blame him for appointing Mike Solari as offensive coord. 2006 season. But somehow i feel Peterson had just as much to do with that decision as anyone as Herm. But I give him credit for reconizing he need someone with more creativity to be the offensive coord. hence the hiring of Chan Gailey. Yeah I blame Herm for those things. But to me the measuring stick for Herm is 2009 and 2010 season for me.

You can’t compare the guy to Matt Millen or Al Davis. The Raiders haven’t won over 4 games in the last 5yrs. And Matt Millen hasn’t taken the Lions to the playoffs neither has he won a playoff game like Herm has. So that being said we’ll just see guys. Will see 2009 season I’m looking forward to it because when we’re winning I’m going to see if you guys are still going to be finding reasons to hate on the guy which will prove my point or are you all going to say you was wrong about the guy.

As for me If we’re losing next yr like we’re losing this yr I’m going to be ready to call for his job. But when we’re winning I’m not going to say I told you so. I’m just going to say I expected it all alone.

Keep up the great work Coach Edwards. All of KC is behind you and we know that you will lead us back to glory very soon now.

AND NOW, Clark Hunt has RE-affirmed Herm’s The Man!

There’s that spam post again.

‘Here comes that rainy day feelin’ again’…J’s back – shadow ever at my ready!

heh heh heh

ED, don’t tell me what team to be a fan of. I bleed Chiefs’ Red and Gold…if I didn’t, I wouldn’t be so passionate about change. I haven’t always been what you refer to as a “Herm Hater”. I have given the man every opportunity to prove that he’s “the man” as the flamboyantly stupid Rin puts it, and in my opinion, he hasn’t. When he’s gone, I’m not going to tell you to go follow Herm at his next train-wreck, so don’t tell me to leave my Chiefs hanging. I won’t do it.

Way to go ED, you tell him!

And…keep up the great work Coach Edwards – ALL of KC is behind you & we know that you will lead us back to glory very soon now.

AND NOW, Clark Hunt has RE-affirmed Herm’s The Man!

Haha. Rin, you’re a doofus.

Rin up here
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J waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay down here

heh heh heh

See my above comment.

Hey look, it’s a talking fundament…J

heh heh heh

See my above comment. You’re still a doofus.

See Rin’s comments all, made before your wrinkly, sagging fundament(ally) odoriferous droppings nee mental excursions into vacuous prose . . .

heh heh heh

I make it a habit to not read your ludicrous rantings any more than I absolutely have to, Rin. You’re still a doofus.

“any more”

- that’s more than Rin does yours…you IDJIOT

heh heh heh

That’s obvious. You haven’t responded with anything even half-way intelligent in over a month. Doofus.

You IDJIOT!

heh heh heh

I would rather be a made up word than a doofus.

And so (lucky) you are, x2!

heh heh heh

Clever. Who helped you with that one?

“Clever”

- natch’…has Rin’s byline

“Who helped you with that one?”

- your parole officer…

heh heh heh

So you admit that you had help. Best to not take all the credit for something it was obvious you couldn’t have done yourself. Nice job! You get a gold star.

“So you admit that you had help”

- yes, your PO pulled and I held (albeit not so well) my laughter as I watched him trying to but forcibly (with ‘real’ forceps) remove head yours impacted backside yours…alas the operation was unsuccessful

“Best to not take all the credit for something”

- exactly, I left all the dirty work to your PO seeing as how he is more intimate- er, familiar with your ‘case’

“it was obvious you couldn’t have done yourself.”

- nor would Rin have even tried…

“Nice job!”

- stop mumbling, take your *** out of your mouth

“You get a gold star.”

- and you get to inspect your entrails awhile longer…

heh heh heh

I’m laughing at your attempt. That was absolute garbage. You’re familiar with that, right? It’s what your mom’s unmentionables smell like.

“I’m laughing”

- at the wall, in a darkened room to match your (un)conscious level…

“at”

- you must be on a :10 second delay; read #1 above

“your attempt.”

- your loss, yet another eye black & bruise ‘pon forehead yours…by the way, what did your folks say to you regarding your aborted attempt at. . . anything/everything?

“That was absolute garbage.”

- yeah, was obvious by your world weary demeanor…

“You’re familiar with that, right?”

- just from watching you implode hererin these last few days…what did your dad say about your BO when you stood next to him (too close):

“It’s what your mom’s unmentionables smell like.”

- without question…

heh heh heh

That was even worse than before. Rin, not only do you suck at life, you also suck at retorts.

J, listing hard to port afore the final plunge his; like a man clings to shipwreck & imagines rescue, no one can hear him scream – time his come to but sleep with the fishies…

heh heh heh

See my previous post. It continues to work in this situation.

No comeback, huh…why set precedent now, you’ve never been able to get in a lick- narrative wise

J, going under for the third time…

heh heh heh

No, I’m just not going to expend any extra effort when what I write is so obviously above you.

No comeback again, huh . . . J, off to that watery grave his…the end

R.I.P

heh heh heh

I’ve typed ‘Rin Rin’ Tin instead of Rin ‘Tin Tin’ twice now (just in this topic alone), and J still hasn’t caught on – but – it’s only been more than 24 hours now…he’s getting better!

heh heh heh

Now watch him scurry about like a rat or little weasel counting them all up…

heh heh heh

No, I have better things to do (a la your mother) than count how many times you screw up. Don’t flatter yourself.

“No, I have better things to do”

- yet, here he is again…at the foot of the Master

heh heh heh

Rinny Tinny Tin!

I WIN AGAIN!