Chiefs Defense Hits Another Low
From Arrowhead Stadium
Try as one might, it’s hard to find any improvement when it comes to the 2008 Chiefs defense.
In game No. 15 of this horrid season, the Chiefs defense turned in another horrid performance. Even though they forced a pair of turnovers by the Dolphins, they couldn’t keep the visitors out of the end zone.
Miami scored a touchdown in each quarter and only once had to settle for a field goal.
The Chiefs defense couldn’t get the Miami offense off the field. The Dolphins had a time of possession advantage of eight minutes, 20 seconds. In the fourth quarter, Miami had the ball for 12:02 of the 15-minute period.
The Chiefs defense seemed to run out of gas.
“They created big plays,” said SS Bernard Pollard. “They ran the ball very well and broke tackles. Yards after that first hit were really big for them. That’s on us.
“This is very disappointing. We’ve got to step back and look at it and improve. We’ve got to get something out of this.”
Right now, the Chiefs are getting nothing but a giant pain in the neck. To be considered a good defense a unit must at the minimum do several things. Forcing turnovers is one and the Chiefs have done a good job of taking the ball away this year. FS Jarrad Page had an interception and LB Demorrio Williams recovered a fumble. There were several other plays where the Chiefs felt they had grabbed a loose ball, but the officials ruled otherwise.
But the other basics are not getting done:
- Keep the other team out of the end zone. The Chiefs gave up five touchdowns to the Dolphins. That’s now 45 on the season that opponents have scored either on the ground or through the air.
- Stop the running game. The Chiefs allowed Miami 168 yards rushing. That’s more than their season average, which is now at 155.9 yards per game.
- Get to the quarterback. After getting three sacks last week against San Diego, the Chiefs were not able to get Chad Pennington on the ground for a sack. That leaves them with nine for the season. With one game remaining, they remain in position to establish new franchise and league records for poor pass rushing.
The Chiefs defense has just one more chance to make a statement in the 2008 season. Certainly not much is expected from them against Cincinnati to close out the season. What is there left to play for? Rocky Boiman has an answer.
“The same thing we’ve been playing for the last four or five weeks,” Boiman said. “You play for pride as a football player and a human being. You want to go out there, build, get better and walk out of the stadium with a good feeling. You want to win and walk out of the locker room with a good feeling.”
Why is the run defense so poor? We have two 1st round,d two 2nd round picks on the line.
Herm was brought here to fix the defense. The Defense has regressed to the worst in the League, far worse than it was when Herm got here, and worse than it was at any time under DV. With all of Herm’s players, minus DJ. I know it’s hard in your position Bob, as a Chief’s employee on their website, but how about ONE word of criticism of Herm on this site, your own independant website, not owned by the Chiefs. I know we’ll see it when Herm’s gone after next week, as we did AFTER DV was gone. How about instead of calling Tyler Thigpen out, you call Herm Edwards out for his shortcomings and failings as a Head Coach. How about breaking down his record as an NFL Head Coach and as Chiefs Head Coach, and putting some blame where it rightfully belongs.
We might shut out the bungles, but that won’t mean the defense improved.
A great coaching effort by Herm Edwards with his out-manned Chiefs staying right with Miami – now with 1 game to go in 2008 Herm can soon turn his attention to the 2009 draft and free agency when as Chiefs Head Coach he will add another layer to the foundation now in place…good luck with the Chiefs in 2009 Coach!
Keep up the great work Coach Edwards. ALL of KC is behind you and we know that you will lead us back to glory very soon now.
AND NOW, Clark Hunt has RE-RE-affirmed Herm’s The Man!
Mark, I think Bob’s reporting has been quite candid and accurate. You can complain all you want to, but there isn’t an NFL coach who could have done better with the circumstances that came along this year. We have no pass rush, because we had to give up Jared. When you’re starting guys at end and linebacker who were on the street, you’re not going to be very good. If you want to criticize Edwards, criticize him for going full out down this road, but personally, I remember the 90s when we never did badly enough to get high level talent (remember Marty’s “best 53″ theory”). We fans were screaming that we couldn’t be great without this kind of collapse. Now we get to see, don’t we? This year has never mattered-it’s always been about 2009-2010-2011.
Wow, did you just call Herm the best coach in the NFL?!? Wow.
MDChief with another excellent post, just like Rin’s! Herm’s The Man!
Mark is absolutely correct. When Herman Edwards came to KC he made a point of criticizing the Chiefs offense and said he would improve the defense. The team has invested a lot of draft picks and effort toward that end. How’s that working? The efforts of our team this year are a direct result of Herm’s plans or lack thereof. This is a performance driven business and Herm Edwards is a good man but not a good coach. He hasn’t gotten the job done and today was another example of his shortcomings. When we hire another general manager he will replace Herm, as he should, or else we’ll see more of the same next year. If Clark Hunt doesn’t see that, and I think he does, we run the risk of becoming another Detroit or Cincinnati, perennial losers and laughingstocks of the league.
With the exception of Frank Ganz I hate to see Chiefs coaches get fired. No matter what happens next week the Chiefs are going to pick two or three in the draft. Hopefully they can get an awesome pass rushing lb, a quality guard in the 2nd round, another lb in the 3rd and a free agent QB with the potential to surprize us all. Should it be Herm’s team next year? The thing is you never know. We’ll have to let the new GM decide. Next year at this time, as the ‘00 decade is ending the Chiefs will have just spanked the faltering Jacksonville Jaguars to set up the division title battle with Denver or San Diego the following week–OR: if the Chiefs are 2-13 or 5-10 this time next year….it might be time to start following another team.
I think Herm will do another great job when he drafts for the Chiefs next April- excitement’s already growin’!
MD Chief, I fully supported and support the full rebuild, so why would I criticize Herm for it. I criticize him because he’s a horrible Head Coach, as his record shows. The starting DE’s this year were Herm’s #1 draft choice Hali, and Herm’s #2 draft choice McBride. Herm played Hali out of position for much of the season. At the time of McBride’s injury, they had one sack between them, one more than the DT’s Herm drafted #1 and #3. Guys drafted that high are supposed to be difference makers. So either they can’t play, which is on Herm, or they are not being used to their ability, which is on Herm. The only reason we “had” to get rid of he great Jared Allen, who should be the face of our rebuilding D was because of Carl Peterson. Like he’s done many a time, he forced a great player to ask out, one who absolutely loved it here and wanted to stay until Carl forced his hand by refusing to negoiate a long term, market based deal.
Speaking of young players, did anyone notice Kershaw and Walden today, and Octavian yesterday, all young LB’s the Chiefs had, making play after play on special teams for the Dolphs ad Cowboys.
Yeah Mark, I never understood why they sent Walden back down to the practice squad, not sure what that was about, I’m betting someone gambled that he would slip past for a couple weeks and ended up being surprised.
There have been a few other roster moves that make me wonder, LIKE, Why savage isn’t a return guy, and why did we cut Patterson and sign a guy like Colclough, and why did we send Dacus to the PS, he was contributing some big plays on ST, and what the heck is the deal with B. Richardson, can this guy play or not? That’s just a couple that come to mind.
The season is almost over, thank goodness. Rah rah guys, I see some new ones, herm went into the year with 19 untested players this year. There was not a chance in hades it would be successful. Grunhardt once said an OL could introduce one player a year and have a chance of positive plays, herm chose to LOSE these games intentually. It was a wonderful experiment that cost the chiefs nothing on the fans get burned. There is a new GM coming, hopefully from outside the organization. herm stays or goes, it does not matter it will take years to cover over this pile he threw on the field this year.
By the by I noticed Dorsey getting single-teams most of the game, there is a real success story. Had to release a little bile (don’t tell the wife).
As for why the chiefs made the personnel moves they chose to do, who know, not me. herm is a defensive genius, no he is a personnel genius, no, he is just a flop in KC.
Ah, I can’t wait for the new GM to come in and fire Herm. That’s all I really want for Christmas. Too bad I’ll have to wait until Christmas is over for that one. At least Peterson left all ready, that’ll just have to tide me over.
No progress, no improvements, no reason to think we can build a champion on this foundation. Sorry to break it to you rah rah guys but this season (as well as 2006 and 2007) have been complete wastes. Ultimately, it was Carl’s fault. He hired the wrong guy (Herm) and now Carl is gone because of it. Hopefully the new GM and HC will build and coach this team correctly.
I for one get annoyed by all of the lets fire Herm crap…I mean, the chiefs have done the EXACT same thing for YEARS…signing older players that last for a few years and thats it. we win about 8 to 9 games a year, and we know we don’t have a good enough team to win it all.
Each year, we get 30 something QB’s, so about the time we start to click the guy gets past his prime and start all over again.
Guess what Chief fans…Herman Edwards is the first Chief higher up that brought a brand new philosiphy to this organization. Gone are the Cheseter McGlockton’s, Johnnie Morton’s, and so on…and now we get to watch guys like Flowers, Carr, Page, Bowe and maybe Thigpen blossom into excellent players…and they are all in their low 20’s…so, he sets us up for a dynasty…
Does the Defense suck? of course! But, I would rather suck with young players and have something to hope for, than suck with Old players…
Count your blessings…we finally have an excellent foundation of young players, another high pick draft and a TON of money to fill the holes…
Stop complaining about Herm…he is helping this organization to set up for years of being good…not just 9 win teams that get us first round exits out of the playoffs and the 20th pick of the draft everyear.
All you complainers won’t say a word win this team is winning super Bowls in 2010, 2011 and 2012…so shut up!
With some luck Clark will hire a GM that has a connection to Herm and the two can work well together. Herm will get us to the Super Bowl when he gets all the pieces together and he is close. Herm hang in there give us one more year at least.
Bob, let Herm know that we are rooting for him and to show us what he is made of.
Drew,
Sounds like you want Herm for the GM, not Head Coach.
Speaking of things that are annoying, I’m sick of herm apologists trying to make this about player personnel rather than the real issue at hand: HEAD COACHING!!!!!!!!
That’s Herms job. That’s what he sucks at. That’s why he has to go.
Can’t wait for Herm to get to work on his 2009 Chiefs draft and free agentt signings – Herm’s gonna lead the Choefs to a great 2009 season!
Keep up the great work Coach Edwards. ALL of KC is behind you!
And the Chiefs too!
Herm is not the 1st Head Coach to be in charge of a rebuild. Just the worst. The rebuild will continue and flourish with our next GM and our next Head Coach. Fortunately, Herm has already shown us what he’s made of. 2-22 shows it pretty well. The same stuff over and over, 2nd half collpses, unagressive, soft defense. Excuse making, failure to take any blame or accountability for failure.
it’s like…the chiefs go out and sign veterans and have constant turnover and never really build a dynasty…and you have fans that complain…now they are doing this and you have fans that complain…I for one, love seeing this team build with youth
This year has been all about building…and lets not forget, that the chiefs had a hard time scoring 10 points a game and we constantly ran LJ into the line for about a 1 yard game…now, 30 points is about the norm and LJ has huge holes. The Defense sucks, but we are growing and building…
Look at the Dynasty’s…49ers, Cowboys, Broncos, Bills, Patriots…ALL of those teams built their teams through the draft. Montana, Aikman, Elway, Kelly and Brady were all drafted by their teams (I think Elway was traded on draft day)…
That is what Herm is building…this is his first year of totally rebuilding…can we give him some time please? So, Herm isn’t out there dropping onside kicks and missing tackles…its on the players..the YOUNG players…
Clark Hunt will brin in a new GM and that GM will keep the current staff except maybe Gunther. He is going to evaluate for a year and then make changes in 2010 with the Coaches…but Herm will have another year to prove he has this organization moving in the right direction…
Talk all you want about rebuilding, but he still sucks as a head coach. I don’t see anyone defending his awful gameday skills.
his coaching is fine…
he has made a few mistakes, but all coaches can get questioned after the fact.
It is about PERSONELL moves…NO coach and I mean NO COACH haas the guts to play this many rookies.
The reason most coaches play average veterans over young rookies, is because they would rather go 8-8 and maybe keep their job. Playing all these rookies means you won’t win, and that is a death sentence for a coach.
This is what is best for the organization, and Herm knows that. I mean, Herm could have kept some veterans and and signed Chad Pennington…but where would we be now? 4-10 instead of 2-12…or maybe 5-9?
Its not being a Herm apologist…its just being a Chiefs fan for MANY years and finally seeing a core of mid 20 somethings leading this team like Thigpen, Bowe, Bradley, Carr, Flowers, Page and Pollard.
Or, maybe lets go sign Ty Law again and maybe bring back Trent Green and maybe Sam Adams….I mean, we will probably win 7 games…
Herm went for 2 which was a great move. They have adapted to Thigpen which was a great move. He goes for it on 4th down when necessary which is a great move.
I mean, tell me how he is such a bad coach? How is Herm such a horrible coach? I don’t see it…
Herm has already told his assistants to look for other jobs, so it’s just a matter of time until he gets what he’s earned. Drew, I totally agree about the rebuild. But Herm’s not the right Coach to teach these players how to win, and be aggressive.
Herm has already told his assistants to look for other jobs, so it’s just a matter of time until he gets what he’s earned. Drew, I totally agree about the rebuild. But Herm’s not the right Coach to teach these players how to win, be accountable, and be aggressive, since he’s none of the above.
Ty Law was Herm’s boy.
Herm was forced to go to Thigpen. Herm was forced to use this new offense. Herm absolutely HATES this new offense (listen to his postgame comments today, he talks down on the whole spread offense) because it proves his ideas were what was holding the offense back the 2.5 years before Chan was given power.
Herm is going for it on 4th now that they have nothing to lose. He sure didn’t do it the 7.5 years before that.
Its funny, the only things you are giving him credit for are things that are against his philosophies and that he’s only done out of desperation the last 5-6 games! In essence, you’ve just agreed with me.
Oh, and also as a horrible coach:
-worst clock and time out management of all time
-horrible half time adjutments
-all decisions predicated on fear rather than sound judgment and probability
-no self accountability
-Blames “luck” and “circumstance” instead of identifying problem and coming up with a solution
- and on and on and on and fig newton and on
2nd half kills chiefs , check my coment .
Herm Edwards has layed the foundation for future success for the Chiefs, and will lead the Chiefs back to glory very soon now. A 4-5 year contract extension with KC is now but mere formality.
Clark Hunt has RE-RE-affirmed Herm…and so does Rin! Keep up the great work Coach!
Gee it never occurred to me that herm’s job is to develope personnel, even all his success with off the street ones. I guess I thought he was supposed to win games…..WIN GAMES. But I am wrong, he drafted an entire Def. Line and they cannot play at a any level…..so….. I guess he cannot develope players either.
December 21, 2008 – Mark says:
Herm has already told his assistants to look for other jobs, so it’s just a matter of time until he gets what he’s earned. Drew, I totally agree about the rebuild. But Herm’s not the right Coach to teach these players how to win, and be aggressive.
Do you know this for a fact? Or are you jumping on the rumor wagon?
I do not have a problem with Herm’s game day coaching. I too think that he does a fine job. Any coach put under a microscope will have flaws. Most of the posters that say otherwise is just because they heard somebody say it and they jumped on board. Most of you wouldn’t know a good or poor game day coach if they punched you in the nose.
Herm Edwards…the best Chiefs Head Coach since Hank Stram!
Speak for yourself TRG, I’ve seen Herm games since he took over the Jets in 2001 and saw it all for myself (many live, for that matter). You may take you info from 3rd hand rumors, but mine are facts and first hand knowledge.
The microscope argument might make sense for someone who’s never followed another team or the Chiefs before Herm, but then again, that sure doesn’t describe me. Again, it only speaks for yourself.
what? You said he “hates” this offense? Really? Did he tell you that personally? He told his personell to look for other jobs? Sounds like you are just making that up…that is not factual, just your opinion…
Oh, and I heard a football player tell me one time (Mike Jones, up here in st. Louis on 590 The Fan AM) say this about halftime…
He said, that it is close to impossible to make big enough adjustments during halftime. You have your game plan and most adjustments are made during the game…like Blitz or not. Pass or run… They have 20 minutes at the half. By the time the team gets into the locker, they have about 17 minutes.
So, in 17 minutes how much are you going to change? It’s not like you can scrap your entire scheme and start over? So, what would you tell the team to do for the second half? What would you change?
The reason this offense struggles in the second half is because they are young and they don’t know how to close out games…The dolphins ran the wildcat, did play action passes and played the same game they did in the first half.
I am not saying Herm doesn’t make mistakes. He does, but Coaches are a HUGE part of personell and acquiring players…
Herm was defending the spread today after the game. Go to arrowheadpride.com to see that…
He adapts and the players like him. The team respects him. Go to nfl.com and watch mic’d up for the chiefs. You get to see Herm interact with his players during the week, and they all love him…
He is a players coach…so was Dick Vermeil…players want to play for coaches like these guys…plain and simple…
Herm is HIGHLY respected around the league…us dumb fans think we know, but we really don’t.
Give specific examples of how they don’t make adjustments at half time, tell me how you know what their adjustments are I would love that in. Give specific examples of how he is a bad clock manager. Give more than a couple, bottom line you don’t, players play and execute.
Not saying I agree with all his decisions, b/c I don’t, but if your going to list things I want some specific things, and not just 1 or two. Anyone can just list stuff that maybe has happened a handful of times. And say how bad something is.
Herm & his staff hand picked Tyler off the Minnesota Practice squad. They started him and he looked like a freshmen in college against Atlanta. There were injuries, when that happened they gave him a second chance, and set him up for success by changing the offense. Everybody who watched Thiggy play against at Atlanta saw that he struggled mightly. They made adjustments & he played better give credit when credit is due. Herm looked for an OC in the off season, that didn’t have a specific offense, but rather could build an offense to his players strengths. Give him credit for that kind of hire.
I not saying to fire or keep Herm, but be specific if you feel a certain way be specific.
Tired of people just saying stuff to say stuff.
That’s pretty funny that you think players “liking him” has anything to do with being a head coach. It’s more important to be respected than be a “good buddy”.
Go to kcchiefs.com to watch the whole postgame comments. Herm gets asked why they didn’t run more and he gets frustrated and goes on a tirade about how “you can’t run in the spread” and “we’re a passing team now” in a VERY MOCKING way.
Have you ever heard Herm talk before? All he ever talks about is running the ball. He obviously hates this offense because he feel like they can’t run enough.
He only allowed the change in offensive philosophy out of desperation to show improvement and save his job. The funny part is everything about this offense flies in the face in every press conference he ever gave in the 7 years before that. Shifts, diversions, pulling linemen, throwing when you have to.. these are all things Herm said REPEATEDLY were the wrong thing to do. Now we’re doing it successfully and it’s killing him
Whiners are going to whine no matter what happens…
This rebuilding is going to take awhile, so get used to it… No matter who the coach is…
I would much rather have a young team that we created from scratch and can get behind. Then have another Vermeil special, where we sacrifice the future of the team for a one time chance to make something happen…
Guess what? Vermeil’s playoff record is just as good as Herm’s. Except he left a team that was the oldest in the NFL and hanging on by a thread. If Peterson would have let Herm start this rebuilding process when he first got here, we would be in the playoffs THIS YEAR!!!
Herm needs at least one more year before we can actually evaluate his success here in KC. We need some Patience…
YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS!
Drew I’m with you.
Year 1 of rebuilding and everybody is freaking out.
Its a process. Yah its year 1. Herms first year everybody was worried about dismantling the offense, he kept it, we got our ass handed to us in Indy. Last year wanted to blow the whole thing up, GM wanted to rebuild but remain competitive, arguably the worse season I have ever witnessed as a chiefs fan.
Which brings us to Year 1 of the plan he wanted from the get go.
just to address the defensive concerns, IMO:
Herms 1st & 2nd year our defenses were in the top 15. This defense is totally new compared to those 2 defenses. New players at every level, 1 year starters at every position except RDE, Linebacker are a joke (we are playing with guys off the street) secondary is solid. We are going to be okay.
I’m patient, I’m frustrated. I just want to see the guy in year 2, to me year 2 of this project will give us a full clear view of this teams direction. All these guys with 1 year of playing behind I think will really be flying around next year. I think B. Carr is overated, Leggett will surpass him next year. Horrible tackler and always letting guys catch the ball in front of him.
Tyler’s play has hit a plateau. Still locking on to 1st read, and throwing into double coverage way to often. His footwork sucks as well, all his throw are all arm, he hardly ever uses his wholed body when throwing down field, drives me crazy.
How about D-Mac stepping up, I for one couldn’t stand this guy. But the second half of the year he has not been visible (which is good)did anybody see him blow 2 guys up on the charles screen? and blocking J.Porter when he went to his side. He has improved.
Wow Skrappy, where to begin with all the inaccuracies.
1) no one is arguing against getting younger, so quit trying to equate that to Herms head coaching ability
2) Vermeil’s playoff record just as goood as Herm’s??? AHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHahaha.. . hahahahahaa.ahjahahhahahahahahahha. Vermeil had a .545 winning percentage in the playoffs, 2 SB appearances, 1 victory. Herm is 2-4 in the playoffs and never even made it past the divisional round… good chuckle
3)Vermeil’s team was old, but it’s just an urban legend that they we’re the oldest in the NFL. Look it up yourself.
4) I love this lie that “Poor Herm wanted to rebuild but Peterson wouldn’t let him”. Just not true and Herm even denies it himself. By the way, how could we have been rebuilding more since 2006? We didn’t trade away any draft picks. How could we of magically created more draft picks?
5) What do expect to change about herm in “one more year” after 8 years of data to go on already?
I know what Herm’s philosophy is…and I agree, you have to run the ball to win…
But, are you forgetting the first 6 weeks of the season???? this team couldn’t score 10 points all game?! Have you forgotten that?? The new offense has pumped life into this team, and have been competitive from day one…You have to give credit for that…he has allowed Gailey to go against his mantra…and to me, that is good coaching instead of forcing a square peg into a round hole…
you have to be kiddin about being a buddy. I didn’t say a buddy, I said they like playin for him…that goes a long way. Herm is a players coach…and how you think that can be a bad thing is beyond me.
My point is not to argue with minor things about why you think he is so awful…here is my point.
Why don’t the whiners and complainers go over to an Oakland Raiders or Denver Broncos board to do all of your complaining? I am sure you will fit in there…I feel like I am reading a raiders board sometimes with all this bashing of the Chiefs…I mean, I thought we were Chiefs fans? What makes you think you know more about the NFL than GM’s and VP’s that have been in the industry for 30 years? I mean, I am the type of fan that thinks, “well, they work on improving this team 40 to 80 hours a week 52 weeks out of the year. They have scouts all over the U.S. and so I think they have a better idea about what they are doing than you do, who watches them for 3 hours and reads blogs.
With that being said…support your team and look at the bright spots. These guys wanna WIN the game too and they are working for it. Their jobs are at stake, not yours.
Have a little faith in our team, our coaches and our personel…and if you don’t go bash the chiefs with the raiders and broncos…I just get tired of hearing it
I’m not bashing the Chiefs, I’m pointing out that we have a bad head coach.
It sounds like you would have fit in just perfectly in 1939 Nazi Germany. “They must know what their doing more than me. After all, it’s their job.”
look at the titans…
they blew up their team a few years ago, and have drafted really well…
Have you seen them sign any big name guys? Nope! they had a few 4-12 teams and now look at them
the elite teams do what the chiefs are now doing…and you DO have to give herm credit for this as NO other coach has done this in the Carl Peterson era…
It totally IS accurate about Herm wanting to rebuild and Carl resisting…I have the article for you if you like?
I don’t think it is a coincidence that the Chiefs always signed 30 somethings year in and year out, and then Herm comes in and they do this…
In my opinion, it would be a TRAVESTY to fire Herm and then another coach comes in and takes these players that Herm has groomed to the playoffs…
Herm needs one more year to see what HIS team can do!
It wouldn’t be right to fire him, just 1 year into the rebuilding that the Owner says he wants…
Its like, lets hire a coach that will play nothing but young kids for a year. And they will suck because they are so young…but lets fire the coach before those players get better? We told him to play them, knowing we would struggle, but now we are going to fire him? And let another coach reep the rewards of all these rookies learning on the fly?
That is totally wrong and I GUARANTEE you that Herm is back for 2009…
I just like reading about how the chiefs will fix the team, and new GM candidates and is Thigpen the answer? stuff like that…
It gets old reading the we hate Herm stuff…no one is to blame for the chiefs being bad…
I’ll take 2-14 and rebuilding any day over 8-8 each year trying to just make the playoffs…
ESPN’s Chris Mortensen reported that Herm has considering quitting after the end of the season due to the fact that he is pretty worn down with this football team and is thinking about spending time with his two young children . It was on ESPN .com about him maybe stepping down at the end of the season I guess we will see if he does but it was posted I think yesterday or friday.Overall it was another not finishing a football game when you have the lead.
Drew, please read this article that sets the story straight about the common misconceptions about what the Titans did. It absolutely wasn’t from good drafts from the bad years:
http://www.chiefswarpath.com/news/2008/10/24/not-a-titan-model/
Oh you have an article for me? Is it by any chance by that fool Kent Babb who is the worst sports writer I’ve ever read and never has any references? I’d love to see a credible article that isn’t just spreading this common but unfounded rumor. The fact is, Herm denies it himself.
An even better fact is there is little more we could have done to rebuild more than we already were. We’ve been letting go of veterans from the onset (e.g. T-Rich), keeping all our draft picks, and bringing in a lot of college free agents. What more could we have done?
And please please please stop confusing Herms player acquisition with his head coaching. I’m not arguing about some of the players we’ve brought in, I’m saying we’ll be much better with a different coach leading them!!
Herm Edwards will return to lead the Kansas City Chiefs as Head Coach in 2009!
I think people (fans) are too emotional right after games, which makes one prone to extremes. Take two aspirin, and post in the morning.
Uncuffed. You are on fire today. Brilliant stuff. It’s posters like you and findthedr that make me proud to be a Chief fan. Posting facts. Giving evidence and well sourced stuff to back your views. Some people are just blind Herm fans, for some reaon which I have yet to figure out other than he’s entertaining at press conferences and a nice guy. We, OTOH, are Chief fans that want the best Head Coach The Chiefs, not the worst. Our wait for competancy at the Head Coaching position is almost over. One more week, and it starts with a GM and Head Coach that know what they are doing. It’s gonna be great to be a respected franchise again. Herm had the right idea about rebuiding, but he’s not the guy to bring it to fruition. I do thank him for getting Clark to see the right way of doing things, and the much needed getting rid of Carl. Now, when he’s gone also, we’ll be on our way.
If you’ve followed Herm’s career of planting stories, then you know what Mortensen and Shefter said about the assistant Coaches being advised to look for other jobs is true and is coming right from Herm.
Herm used the press to negotiate his way out of NY when he was about to be fired, and now he’s doing the same thing here. He’s willing to leave,but wants to be paid for his last year. He’s negotiating his exit terms, and I hope he gets his full money, if that’s what it takes to be rid of him.
See you back as KC Chiefs Head Coach in 2009 Herm!
Watch your quotes, sunday Enberg talked about how loved carl was in KC. How about that for factual reporting?
Looking forward to ‘another’ great draft and free agent acquisitions from THE KC Chiefs Head Coach Herm Edwards in 2009!
well there ya have it, the chiefs will be superbowl winners with a new “good” coach next year… LOL… Maybe the chiefs will be able to pull the likes of norv turner, marvin lewis or even tom cable these are some of the coaches who will be available i think next year… Can’t wait!!! Damn, I thought the chiefs were farther away from being Oakland. Another year another coach, I think the team should honor Coach Edwards contract that they both signed, then do what they have to do, if it turns out that bad after next year. Im betting its not going to be the same…
Recently I posted my wish list for a coaching staff using Marty and Bill as the leaders. Now, I would like to post a second option that might be more possible considering certain coaches are fired from their respective teams. I encourage my fellow readers to look up the coaching experience these coaches will bring to the table and more importantly, the potential they could possibly provide.
GM: Scott Pioli
Head Coach: Josh McDaniels (Patriots Off. Coord./Quarterbacks)
Off. Coord: Al Saunders (Rams/Redskins/Chiefs)
Quarterbacks: Eric Price (Current WR coach)
Wide Receivers: Bob Saunders (Rams/Redskins/Chiefs)
Off. Line: Frank Verducci (Browns/Buffalo/Dallas/Bengals)
Running Backs: Anthony Lynn (Browns/Dallas/Jaguars/Denver)
Tight Ends: John Embree (Current TE coach)
Def. Coord: Romeo Crennel (Browns/Patriots)
Linebackers: Mike Haluchak (Browns LB coach)
Def. Line: Randy Melvin (Browns/Patriots)
Def. Backs: Cory Undlin (Browns/Patriots)
As you can see there are a lot of connections to the Browns because of Romeo Crennel. Also some of the coaches have connections to the Patriots. Since Pioli and McDaniels will come from that organization it only makes sense and since Romeo came from the Patriots as well he will have some influence as to his coaching staff.
Al and Bob Saunders come back simply because they will help Josh put together an AWESOME offense that will lead the league in passing as well as rushing which we had when Vermeil was here. This will compliment the defense that Romeo will put together. 3 Superbowl rings have some clout.
Comments??
Sorry do not know anything about other coaches in the NFL. I stick with letting the head coach get who he wants, as long as the team gets better with time. My heartburn with herm to many elements are no better now than when the season started and it falls on his shoulders.
I have been reading the posts from this site for a while, but never responded. The thing that strikes me is that everyone wants to forget the past. I lived in KC all of my life, until moving to STL last year and it just never stops with Chiefs fans. We are never satisfied with anything. When Marty was here he did exactly what everyone wants the Chiefs to do now and that is patch together teams that win now (regular season). Were we satisfied then, no at all. All you ever heard was “why do we keep getting everyone else’s trash.” Then after a failed attempt with Gunther came Vermeil. It was more of the same with him. The difference is Marty won with Def. and Dick won with Off. Both of these guys gave us reason to hope, but we ran them out of town as well. I believe both of these guys are or will be in the HOF. I agree that Herm is not in the same category as either of these men, but his idea of how to turn this franchise from the oldest under Vermeil, into a franchise we can once again believe in is the best decision.
For the love of god, no one is arguing about getting younger. The topic at hand is about Herms head coaching abilities, or lack there of, not young player acquisition.
It’s like we’re trying to argue if cherries are red or blue and you guys just keep saying, “they’re tasty”
Here’s my thing about Herm. The guy is getting the job done based on what he has to work with. We’re competing against teams with far better talent and far better quarterbacks at this point in there careers and we’re overachieving. Any other team in the league had to go to their 3rd string quarterback with a rebuilding team would be getting blown out every week. I mean look at how the Browns are doing with Ken Dorsey.
As for the defense Gunther has got to go. The only shining moment he’s had as defensive coord. was in 2006 and 2007 when Herm was hired the defense ranked in the top 15. Now it looks like the Herm effect is wearing off. And we’re right back to how it was when Vermeil was here. Gunther just doesn’t get the Tampa 2 and he definately doesn’t understand how to develop talent. Derrick hasn’t developed and neither has our defensive line. Get rid of him and Krummie. And hire a real def
defensive coord. We dumped Solari and now its time to dump Gunther. The offense has improved since Solari departure and can only assume the same if Gunther is gone. ONly in KC where a head coach inherits coordinators and not pick his own. Glad Peterson isn’t here anymore to do that type of crap. Fire Gunther,Krummie, and might as well get rid of the special teams coach. Allow Herm to do like he did with the offensive coord. let him choose his own defense and special teams coach plain and simple
Overachieving??? Even Herm expected more than 3 wins this year and Clark Hunt said another 4-12 season would be a big disappointment. Going to the 3rd string QB is not an excuse because it turned out he was better than the other two, unlike Cleveland where Dorsey is clearly the least talented of the bunch.
It’s funny you don’t give defensive improvement credit until 2006, when in reality it happened in 2005 when we jumped up to 16th in the league in points against. We hovered around 15th in 2006 and 2007 and took a big step backward when Herm put his stamp on the defensive line this year. Congrats Herm on the worst Chiefs defense this decade!
Defense is what Herm was supposed to help on this team, but it’s now the worst. On one hand you want to say “this is Herm’s first real year”, but then when it comes to the defense, you say “Herm helped it in 2006 and 2007, but then in 2008 it’s Gunther’s fault”.
Which is it?
See you back as Chiefs Head Coach in 2009 Herm!
uncuffed, the point is Herm is the only coach that would go young. Period. So without him being here it wouldn’t have happened. Have they played better since the beginning of the season?? So far I think Herm has done a good job coaching, has he lost the games personally? I dont think so. I believe that he gave the team the plays to run, if they don’t execute the plays correctly or miss something, then is that Herm’s fault? If your boss tells you to do something and you don’t do it correctly is that the bosses fault or is that the workers fault?
So I think Herm has done a good job given the oldest starting team in the NFL when he got there… You can argue the team wasn’t the oldest, but in reality, the team had the oldest starting bunch out of all the NFL teams… He vetted the team last year and should get his last year of his contract to show the progress they have made.
So if they’ve drafted and developed bad players who can’t execute, whose fault is it then? On one hand you give him credit for bringing in young guys, but when they can’t perform you say it’s not his fault? That’s a laugh.
He’s the only coach who would go young?! That’s a laugh too! How do you explain all the other young teams out there then? How do explain the Packers being the youngest team in the NFL last year WITH BRETT FARVE?! And they were highly competitive!
And to your question about have the improved this season? Well, the defense sure hasn’t. Special teams hasn’t. Offense did, but most of that was from a switch in scheme and QB, as evidenced by the “sudden” improvement. The only group of players I see significant improvement from is the offensive line, and some even argue some of that improvement is from the spread offense.
Lastly, the 2005 chiefs (starter or 53-man roster) wasn’t the oldest in the league. Look it up yourself, i have. But it doesn’t really matter, they were old. Just not the oldest.
Robert, just one comment to have the passing and rushing game you speak of your going to need to have a better power rushing game like Vermiel had, which means a better O-line, so you need to have Alberts get better and Waters to keep it up and then on top of that you will need to get better C, RG & RT… Lineman who can push defenders off the ball and can pass protect… Every high powered offense has a great O-line, so it doesn’t matter which coaches you bring in, if they dont have the line.
Vermeil’s team wasn’t a “power rushing” team in the traditional, or Herm, sense. Vermeil preferred athletic O-linement (e.g. Wiegmann) who could pull out on runs outside the tackles and on screen passes. Herm’s “power rushing” is an up the gut big-boy offensive line. Both have their pluses, but there are significant differences.
The defense ranked 25th in the league in 2005 uncuffed. So no we weren’t good. And yes minor improvement came with Herm as the head coach but obviously not enough to warrant keeping Gunther as head coach. We were ranked even worse in 2004 and 2005 against the run. And please pts allowed doesn’t truly tell the whole story if you given up a bunch of yards. Anyways fact remains Gunther needs to go. He’s wasn’t someone Herm brought in he was inherited just like Mike Solari. Definately preety sure both were Peterson moves and not Herm. Hopefully next year Herm is allowed to bring in his own defensive coord. and will see much better improvement.
As for the 3rd string quarterback being used as an excuse. ITs the truth. I don’t care how good Tyler is playing good doesn’t negate the fact he was 3rd string guy that played awful in the preseason and the Atlanta game. You, I, and know one else knew he was going to play this well. So give HErm and Chan credit for getting the guy prepared and give Herm credit for scooping the guy away from the Vikings because he seen the potential, but no one like yourself is going to give Herm credit for anything because you to busy pointing out the flaws like you’re perfect.
I’m sorry keeping Gunther as defensive coord.
I’m sorry keeping Gunther as defensive coord.
Uncuffed, The packers were the youngest team last year? Was that an average of every player on the team?? The starters are where it matters, dont take the entire 53 man roster, take the 22 starters age then average it. That’s where it matters, not the young guys sitting on the bench not playing… Vermiels starters were the first or second oldest on average…
Chiefs Defense:
2004: 27.2 /game
2005: 20.3 /game
2006: 19.7 /game
2007: 20.9 /game
2008: 28.3 /game
So looking at those numbers you can actually say with a straight face that the defensive improvement came in 2006 and not 2005? What a lark. Points per game don’t tell the whole story, but yards per game do? You mean when we were blowing up the scoreboard on offense and playing prevent late in the game giving up 100 extra yards with no consequence? Yeah, that’s a much better “story”. Come on.
I agree that the QB instability hurt this team early in this season, but even now with an offense the best its been in 2 years we still only won one game. That’s why it’s hard to blame it all on the “3rd string QB” thing.
Arrowhead78,
You should really do your homework before spouting off. Yes, the Packers STARTERS are young too. They only have 4 starters 30 or older, which is less than the chiefs before injuries (Waters, McIntosh, Tony G., Surtain, D. Edwards)
And the rest of the roster’s age matters too. Where do you think most teams put their up and comers and developing players?
Oh, and by the way, the Packers were the youngest team this year to (tied with the Chiefs). Bob had an article about it at the beginning of the season.
I’ve seen some major improvement in O-Line play.
Go back and watch weeks 1 2 3 or 4 take your pick, then watch the last three games, just watch the O-Line,if your not blind you can see some major improvement.
Granted Thigpen’s mobility has made the O-Lines job easier but, Smith has made a big difference, Jones had shown improvement too before his injury, and even McIntosh has made big strides.
But imo we still need to address the center position, (I love Niswanger, how could anyone not admire his effort) but he is not a center. We have to address that issue.
If that means moving Waters over to Center and plugging Jones into either L Guard or return him to R.Guard and move Smith to the left side.
Or if we should draft Oher or Smith and then move Albert to Guard for Waters or some combination of that.
Or sign a free agent at Guard, Center or R Tackle, any way you look at it, we have enough guys to improve the line even more by either drafting one O-lineman and signing one free agent.
IF we do some combination of this, the O-line could be set for quit some time.
Nieswanger figures in there somewhere, maybe backup Macintosh and eventually replace him or at Guard, but he has a place on this team.
Uncuffed kill the points allowed crap ok. Thats only a small portion of the defense. We were ranked 26th in yards allowed. So the points stuff could be flawed if you’re playing teams that are not high scoring teams to begin withn I’m not dismissing it altogether but its only a small portion of how the defense is playing. If you’re stopping teams on 1st,2nd,and 3rd downs that means you’re not giving up yards and that matter even more so than points. Because if you’re going 3 and out how can you put up points. That being said once again we were ranked 26th in the league in 2005 in yards allowed and thats not improvement.
Oh well its improvement over Gunther first year back as defensive coord in 2004 where we were ranked 31st lol.
uncuffed here’s some homework for you and your packers being the youngest roster, how about the youngest starting lineups… That’s the difference in your numbers and mine, like I said you can have youth, but if your not playing it, it doesn’t matter…
This was taken from Dallas News.com
The Green Bay Packers tie the Chiefs for the youngest roster in 2008 with an average age of 25.57 years. The Chiefs, with the league’s youngest lineup, are playing their youth. The Green Bay starting lineup is tied for 18th in the NFL at 27.31 years of age.
OPENING DAY PROFILES
Here’s the average age of each team’s starting lineup on opening day, plus the number of players in the lineup 30 years of age or older:
Team Age 30s
Kansas City 25.18 3
Houston 25.77 2
Indianapolis 26.18 2
Buffalo 26.40 3
Oakland 26.59 4
Cleveland 26.72 4
Atlanta 26.77 5
Baltimore 26.86 5
Carolina 26.95 5
Philadelphia 27.0 5
Cincinnati 27.0 7
Minnesota 27.13 5
New Orleans 27.18 5
Arizona 27.27 4
NY Giants 27.27 5
Seattle 27.27 6
Miami 27.27 8
Green Bay 27.31 5
Chicago 27.31 6
Denver 27.36 7
San Diego 27.54 6
San Francisco 27.63 5
St. Louis 27.68 7
Tennessee 27.72 5
Detroit 27.90 8
NY Jets 27.90 8
Jacksonville 27.95 5
Tampa Bay 28.18 6
Pittsburgh 28.18 7
Dallas 28.22 6
New England 28.22 8
Washington 28.63 9
green bay has an advantage in age and experience playing, young teams get beat, but they learn and get better. Houston had the second youngest starting lineup and there not looking bad this year, next year they should be alot better along with the Chiefs…
Thanks for the facts arrowhead
yeah, this lineup is sooooo old. jesus. and to say that the age of the backups doesn’t matter just shows how biased (or completely clueless) you are
jennings 25
lee 28
clifton 32
colledge 26
wells 27
spitz 26
moll 25
driver 33
rodgers 25
Hall 25
grant 26
kapman 29
Pickett 29
jolly 25
montgomery 25
bishop 24
hawk 24
poppinga 29
woodson 32
rouse 24
collins 25
harris 34
Not to point out the obvious, but points allowed would be the most important defensive staff. Yards allowed could be skewed even easier, but I believe the point of defense is to keep the other team from scoring. I may be mistaken though.
For those who say Herma has done a great job…can you really point to any progress since about the 5th game? That is all I have been looking for. Nobody (I would assume) should complain about the youth movement, but many of those players haven’t improved over the season. I would point to Albert, Carr, and Flowers, but that is about it for obvious improvement. Where is the teaching?
I alsow question many personnel moves. I was perplexed when we activated Robinson and Merritt. Two rookies who hadn’t even been in training camp, one of whom who only returns kicks and the other who is inactive each week. I really thought keeping Walden was a no brainer since he made a good portion of the tackles on special teams.
I dont’ question Herm’s ability to identify potential in players or to motivate them. He would be a great VP of player development. He just doesn’t seem to be able to get the x’s and o’s thing to work.
Who cares how young they are? All you rah rah guys are doing is searching (really hard by the looks of it) for excuses for a team that is 2-13 and has blown one 4th quarter lead after another. At that rate, age doesn’t matter much. Losers are losers and that’s what most of these Herm players are. Honestly, there’s maybe 12 players on this team that are worth keeping around.
Excuses are what Herm is best for and the Herm supporters follow suit to a tee. They also don’t put any blame on Herm, just like Herm himself! I won’t go into the Herm argument too deeply anymore. We’ve all covered it from every conceivable angle. When he’s fired in the next few weeks it will all be a moot point anyway.
When Pioli, McDaniels, Capers, and Cassel come over here from New England, they’ll take this franchise in the right direction.
honestly, how quick do you think it will be for the chiefs to become a playoff contender under another coaching staff?
By the way, the only real difference in the general ages of the Chiefs and Packers starting lineup are that the Chiefs have a bunch of 1st and 2nd year players forced into the lineup with no competition or requirement to earn the spot.
Notice that the youngest player starting for the Packers is 24. Their obviously training this guys first and making them earn the spot. But there is absolutely no dispute that the lineup above is anything but young. They just don’t have the 22 year olds skewing the average. Their on the bench and learning in practice.
arrowhead, are you suggesting changing the staff would set us back? Kind of like changing staff and management set the Dolphins back from 1-15 to 10-5?
How ever long it takes arrowhead, it’ll still be sooner than standing pat on this Coaching staff.
or Atlanta being “set back” from 4-12 to 10-5?
Atlanta didn’t rebuild their team, they had a new coach and a new QB and so did Miami… The teams went out and picked up some FA’s so they’re good now… When they can’t afford to spend money on FA’s anymore (cap troubles) at least they will have decent QB’s.
oh, are you suggesting that atlanta and miami are mortgaging their future for now? You mean how Atlanta has had MORE draft picks in the last two years than the Chiefs? You mean how Atlanta has had HIGHER draft picks, on average, than the Chiefs in those years? You mean how Miami also has had a lot of extra picks the last two years? You mean how Miami is the 5th youngest team in the NFL?
oops
December 22, 2008 – arrowhead78 says:
honestly, how quick do you think it will be for the chiefs to become a playoff contender under another coaching staff?
I think with the coaches I’ve suggested, in either option, I think there would be a complete turnaround next year. Add a few FA’s and another good draft and we will see a major difference.
Here’s something I haven’t heard: Marty S. has a proven system to build a team. He did it in KC, Washington, and San Diego. Dick V. had a profile he used and our offense was proof of that profile. Neither of them took us to the big show granted but they implemented their plan and did what they always do with those plans.
Herm has never said he had a plan, only that we need to build through the draft. That is what all SCOUTS say and help teams do. Therefore, we will never have a team built or a profile show fruition with Herm. He is a SCOUT.
We need to get someone in here with a proven plan, profile, or system of building a winning franchise. That’s what Clark wants and everyone of us.
Keep up the great work Coach Edwards. ALL of KC is behind you and we know that you will lead us back to glory very soon now.
AND NOW, Clark Hunt has RE-RE-affirmed Herm’s The Man!
I agree if we a new good head coach and GM we can win next year. Thanks to Herm laying a good foundation of good players. I still would like to see him return next season and finish what he started. But if he is content with running this foolish spread I just don’t know. I like the spread but not as the base of our offense. WE need to be more balanced all the teams that win in this league are well balanced teams that can run the football. Hopefully if he remains head coach he’ll keep that in mine.
I agree that we need more diversity away from the spread. If Thigpen stays the starter, i’m sure they can implement/practice more of that in the offseason.
However, I don’t buy this can’t run from the spread stuff. They haven’t really tried that much, and when we have, it’s been pretty effective (9 yards/carry last game). Even if you take away Johnson’s 33 yard run, he still averaged 6.8/carry on the other runs.
What exactly are they afraid is going to happen if you do it 5-8 more times a game?
I don’t mind a rebuild of the team as much as the excuses Herm throws out about the team being young and inexperienced. After 15 games, you are no longer inexperienced, you’re poorly coached.
Once in a blue moon I agree with somethng that Jason Whitlock says in the KC Star. His article about Glenn Dorsey is right on. It’s an absolute shame the way they’ve used him this year.
I’m not hardcore pro or con Edwards, but stuff like this and Pat Thomas at MLB, Alfonso Boone at DE,and moving Hali from one side to the other (and keeping him there too long), among many other moves, just make me scratch my head.
And when someone says, we knew it would be hard but not this hard (about rebuilding and playing a bunch of rookies), then you have to wonder. To put a college team on the field in the NFL, and then be suprised you win only 2 games? Maybe it is time for a new HC. If not, Edwards needs to be surrounded by new, top-notch GM, assistants and coordinators. Gailey could stay, maybe. Not so much the rest. And, as Whitlock said, whoever is responsible for playing Dorsey like that should be out the door yesterday.
okay to all the above…picture some say hes good some says bad…my opinion is he has peak even with the rookies he had…cant get anymore out of them than he already has..and the defense ..wow they will never catch up… there playing the wrong system for the players…it like a relationship…because the old one fizzled out …sometime a new set of tits..are firmer than the old ones and you play with them more aggressive…so you guys dwell on that …a little stir up for us fans..would make us say…ALRIGHT….rather win loose or draw..we cant get any worst…it time to start the healing process and they will play for the new coaches…100%…toast to the chiefs…ps…good move clark on peterson…i didnt hav to come kiddnap ya after all ….team player in kansas
The only thing that upsets me about the whole process is Herm had to work with Peterson. Who I blame for handicapping this franchise the last 10years. Its obvious him and Herm had different outlooks on where to go with team and its a shame that they had to take us fans through an 4 and 12 season last year before Peterson was convinced Herm was right the team was old and we needed to rebuild. I just only wished Clark would have made this moved with Peterson after 2006 season and maybe the 2008 season could have been avoided we could have had draft picks last year and started the process last year Now we have all this confusion with Herm possibly getting fired in the first yr. of the process. To me it just not a fair deal to any coach.
Or fan to have to suffer with management and coaches not being on the same page. It only hurts the team and sets everything back. One thing Clark needs to do now is this if management and Herm can’t see eye to eye then buyout Herm’s last year and all the GM to pick his own coach. The fans need everyone on the same page in the organization thats the only way we can turn this thing around.
I think this cover 2 defence has flaws built into it. they need to change the defense. Not all the players but the philosophy. Herm says he a defence man but the defence is worse now that ever.