Can History Repeat Itself, Part Two
Wow.
My little piece posted last night about the comparison to the situation that was faced 44 years ago by the Dallas Cowboys to the current Chiefs season caused a reaction. Not only has it come here to the site, but to other sites and outlets as well.
I thought I would touch on some of the things that I’ve read and heard in reaction to what I wrote. I don’t really do that too much and I should probably react to reaction more often. I’m still getting the hang of this Internet thing.
If you missed the piece, here’s the link.
So, let me rattle off some points:
1.) If you’ve read this site at all in its brief lifetime you have noticed that I’m a student of history. I believe in the George Santayana approach that he who does not study history, is doomed to repeat the failures of the past. One of the things lacking from a lot of today’s so-called journalism is context. Context doesn’t look good on TV, so they don’t go after that view. Sports talk radio doesn’t have the time or work ethic to provide context to a situation. Newspapers have the time and space, but nobody reads them anymore and quite frankly most of today’s sportswriters don’t want to be bothered. They are too busy trying to figure out how they can get jobs in radio and television.
I figure that’s what the Internet can bring to the party and that’s something this site will always have: context. I consider myself a student of the game of football and it’s a class that never ends.
2.) I’m angling to get Herm Edwards an extension. Listen, I don’t get a piece of Herm’s contract if he gets one now or in the future. And listen, I’m not sure whether he deserves one. If I owned the team, I wouldn’t make a decision on extension right now. Whether Herm Edwards is good enough to turn this franchise around is something that remains to be proven.
I do believe in what’s going on around Arrowhead with this team. A rebuilding job was badly needed and I’ve got to give Herm credit for the willingness to strip the team right down to the studs and build it back up. He could have pushed for more free agent signings and this team could be 4-6 right now. But that wasn’t going to help in the long run. Edwards took a major gamble going this way. It’s yet to pay off and it may explode on him and cost him his job. If it does, he will go out knowing that he did it his way. I admire that. Can he pull it off? Stay tuned.
3.) I’m an idiot for comparing Edwards to Tom Landry. Nowhere did I compare Edwards to a Hall of Fame coach. I compared the situation the Cowboys faced in 1964 with Landry as their head coach to the one Edwards is currently handling with the Chiefs. Do you think anyone in ‘64 thought Landry was going to be a successful coach? Come on, not with a 13-38-3 record. Only one person had the vision that Landry could become as successful as he was, and that was Cowboys owner Clint Murchison. If the team had continued to lose, Murchison would have looked the dummy for hanging on to Landry, who never would have seen the Hall of Fame without paying admission.
4.) The Cowboys at that time were an expansion team and you can’t compare that to the Chiefs of today. Why not? For all intent and purposes, the Chiefs are an expansion team. Look at the roster this week. There are 20 rookie and first year players on the team right now. There are 17 players on the roster who were not on the roster for the season opener against New England. There are 30 players on the roster who were not with the team at the end of last season. Folks, that’s an expansion team.
5.) I’m just a tool for Chiefs management. What a tired old argument. Let me make this very plain: this website is largely about the Kansas City Chiefs. It is not owned or operated by the Kansas City Chiefs. They do not pay me a penny for what appears on this site, nor do they have any control over its look and content. All of that rests in my hands and my hands only. When you read something here, it’s because it interests me, not because it’s been demanded by the folks at One Arrowhead Drive. In fact, there are more than a few people around Arrowhead that wish this site would go away.
I am paid by the team to write for kcchiefs.com and I’m happy to do so. It’s one of the few sites among NFL teams that provides an inside and outside view of the team.
In the 18 years I was part of the team’s radio broadcast and for the nearly 10 years that I’ve written for the club’s website, I’ve never been told by anyone what to say or what to write. Now, you can believe this or not, but frankly it matters to me not a wit.
6.) Who is Jack Harry? Nothing I read in the last 24 hours made me laugh longer and harder than that question from one of the site’s readers.
Who is Jack Harry? He’s nothing. I shouldn’t have wasted that sentence and this paragraph on a tired old TV fool, but then again, it’s my site. In this case, the editor failed miserably.
Don’t slow down Bob, we love your writings!
You are the first source for Chiefs news and perspective that I go to on a daily basis – keep up the good work, it’s very much appreciated.
I love the ‘who is Jack Harry’ bit!!! Awesome and Hillarious!!
i like the sight bob good job it also gives a fan way out in wyo a different veiw of what is going on with the chiefs from a fans point of veiw I am a die hard chiefs fan i dont watch other teams play i am strictly a chiefs fan and a donkey hater so i can be patient with what looks to me as a great idea and in the end a winning team if people think that old 9-6 teams cut it they are sadly mitaken we needed this we will be good the wins will start GO CHIEFS
Well Bob I’m glad I provided you with some humor but living in dallas I don’t know why my ignorance of “Jack Harry” (I assume he’s a local TV sports caster) was so funny.
Your right Bob it would add to your blog if you would respond to some question and add your OWN opinion on subjects,I would never want you to post any thing that would give our opponents some sort of advantage, but when you first started your blog I thought, GERAT! eyes and ears on the inside
that belong to a guy that can be objective and intelligent enough to keep your readers informed on the nuances of the game and the players, with tact and class.
I truly enjoy your writing style and I too enjoy reading about the history of the game.
You mentioned that you want to have “context” in your threads, that’s good but you also must include some content.
SO you welcome for my brief contribution to your health. Laughing is a healthy thing.
Bob, Love the site. Stick with it your doing great. This is my favorite place to visit on the web. Plus no matter the arguments on here there is always some intelligent rantings. You have had some of the best articles on the Chiefs. Keep it up.
Bob, your writing is refreshing and sensible. This sight has been a great idea. We are all frustrated with the loses but many of us agree with the current philosophy. Some of us even believe that Herm can get this ship righted ( although I think that number is dwindling).
It is great when you have the time to react to comments. Keep up the good work!
Bob,
Based on watching Edwards in New York and here, I don’t think he surrounds himself with good coaches or is a good game manager, and on that basis I think he isn’t going to take this team anywhere special. But I agree with you, this team needed to be blown up. I’m not sure Carl Peterson and Herm Edwards are the right people to put it together though.
Keep up the good work and keep the opinions coming!
I do appreciate this site and the info you bring Bob.
1 point. You give credit for the owner to stick with Landry when he had such a horrible record. YOu failed to think that might have just been luck. Since you are such a fan of history you might want to take a look at it now.
Under your logic maybe Miami should have stuck with Cam Cameron who went 1-15 last yr (though they are better now)
or how about coach Campbell? He had a mark of 34-80-1 over nine (all losing) seasons, making him a record 46 games under 500. Campbell coached the Atlanta Falcons to a 6-19 mark from (1974-76), yet the Philadelphia Eagles hired him in 1983. He was 17-29-1 with the Eagles, but that was good enough for the Falcons to rehire him in 1987.
Hard to believe that hire created much buzz in Atlanta, and Campbell’s 11-32 mark in the next three years didn’t help.
Take the legendary John McKay, for example. For some reason that belies common sense, he left the cozy confines of USC to coach the expansion Tampa Bay Buccaneers in 1976.
His team went 0-14 his first season, and 2-12 the next.
Once, when asked about his team’s execution, he replied, “I am in favor of it.”
By year four, McKay had turned the Bucs around, taking them to the NFC Championship game.
But this story doesn’t have a happy ending.
The team returned to bad, and after a 2-14 mark in 1983 and a 6-10 record in 1984, McKay had had enough. His NFL record was 44-88-1, a .333 winning percentage.
That would seem good to three other college coaching legends: Bud Wilkinson, Lou Holtz and Frank Kush, who combined for a 23-58-1 mark.
Howard Schnellenberger, Butch Davis, Steve Spurrier, Dennis Erickson and Riley scampered back to the college ranks after a combined 17 NFL seasons that produced one winning record.
Great players often become bad coaches. Some are very bad. From Jim Thorpe (14-25-1) to Norm Van Brocklin (66-100-9) to Bart Starr (52-76-3), there is proof that greatness on the field might not mean a thing on the sidelines.
Hugh Campbell, a former Washington State star, won five Canadian Football League Grey Cups as coach of the Edmonton Eskimos but was 8-22 from 1984-85 with the Houston Oilers.
And winning isn’t necessarily genetic. Don Shula, the all-time winningest coach, produced David, who was 19-52 with the Cincinnati Bengals (1992-96).
Kotite wasn’t nearly as well known when he took over a very good Philadelphia Eagles team in 1991. He quickly coached the team to mediocre, then made a not-so-good Jets club terrible (1-15 in his last season). His 40-56 mark is not indicative of how bad he was.
Of course, he is just one of a long line of bad coaches. And if there is any solace to being bad, it’s this: If you’re bad enough, you won’t be forgotten. Herm Edwards wont easily be forgotten.
Under your logic, Mr. Gretz, all these coaches would have gotten extensions. Bad move.
http://www.coldhardfootballfacts.com/Articles/11_2359_Icy_Issue_%232:_the_NFL%27s_worst_coach.html
Icy Issue: Who’s the worst veteran coach in football?
Icier Response: Our money is on Kansas City’s Herm Edwards, who apparently subscribes to the same stagnant offensive theories used so ineffectively by the trench-warfare advocates of World War I.
The deconstruction of the prolific Kansas City offense in two short years under Edwards would make Jacques Derrida flinch with jealousy.
The Chiefs ranked No. 1 in either scoring offense or total offense every year from 2002 to 2005 under head coach Dick Vermeil.
But last season, after just two years of the Edwards regime, the Chiefs had plummeted to 31st in both categories.
The speed of the downfall has been so shocking we might use it to jumpstart the old ticker after our next heart attack.
Sure, Edwards apologists can cite the injury to starting quarterback Trent Green in 2006. But Damon Huard was brilliant as his replacement, tossing 11 TDs to just 1 INT, while posting a 98.0 passer rating. Over the last two years in Kansas City, Huard has completed 354 of 576 passes (61.5%) for 4,135 yards, 7.2 YPA, 22 TDs, 14 INTs, and an 85.7 passer rating in 18 starts (9-9). Most coaches would be happy with that kind of production.
Sure, Larry Johnson’s injury last year didn’t help the cause of the Kansas City offense, either. But in 2006, LJ’s first year playing in the Edwards system, he ran for a franchise-record 1,789 yards on an NFL record 416 carries.
And, lest we forget, Kansas City’s offense also boasts a future Hall of Fame tight end in Tony Gonzalez, who’s caught an amazing 172 passes in the last two years.
Still, despite all the talent and all the individual production, despite the efficient quarterback, the HOF tight end, and the record-setting running back, the Kansas City offense has grown from brilliant to pathetic in two short seasons.
In the one year from 2005 to 2006, the Chiefs offense had fallen from dominant to mediocre. The 2006 season ended with an Edwards-ian offensive implosion for the ages and a sign of things to come in 2007: The 9-7 Chiefs reached the playoffs, but mustered a woeful 126 yards of offense in a 23-8 loss to the Colts in the wildcard round. The game was so boring that we watched Bill Belichick press conference highlights instead.
If you’re still looking to make excuses for the Edwards regime, you could also cite the loss of former stalwart offensive tackle Willie Roaf, who retired at the end of the 2005 season. His loss coincided directly with KC’s sudden fall from offensive grace.
But the loss of one offensive lineman, even one as talented as Roaf, does not explain the stunning downward trajectory of the Chiefs offense.
After the fall from dominant to mediocre in the one year from 2005 to 2006, the Edwards offense fell from mediocre to historically pathetic in the one year from 2006 to 2007.
Put most simply, the Chiefs were consistently one of the most dominant offenses in football for four straight years under Vermeil. They were one of the very worst in football last season, after just two years under Edwards.
As we noted in our Fillability Index this week, the pathetic, ineffective nature of the Kansas City offense is evident everywhere, not just in its 31st ranking in both scoring offense and total offense. For example, the 2007 Chiefs also ranked:
# 28th in Passing Yards Per Attempt
# 32nd in the Offensive Hog Index
# 32nd in the Big Play Index
# 32nd in Scoreability, our measure of offensive efficiency
You have to work hard to be so bad in so many areas.
And for downfalls that dramatic, you typically have to look at structural changes ““ like those brought about by a new coaching staff.
And there’s no denying that the KC offense went in the tank the day Edwards took over. The lack offense, of course, has certainly impacted the bottom line.
The Chiefs were just 4-12 last year, tying a mark for the worst record in franchise history. Only the existence of true bottom feeders like Miami and St. Louis prevented the Chiefs from being the worst team in football last year.
Of course, the 4-12 must have felt familiar for Edwards. It was the same record he posted with the Jets in 2005, his last season in New York before he was snapped up in a regretful move by the Chiefs. Despite the fact the Jets were 4-12 and had continually struggled to move the ball with Edwards at the helm, the Chiefs traded a fourth-round pick to the Jets for their coach and for the honor of destroying their offense with record speed. (The Jets used the pick on RB Leon Washington).
Here’s guessing that another team won’t make the same mistake, and that Kansas City is Edwards’ last stop on the coaching carousel.
Until that day, it looks like the Chiefs offense in stuck in the Stone Age of Edwards-ian offense theory. We’re hoping this year he’ll modernize the offense by breaking out the Notre Dame shift and the flying wedge and at least give fans in Kansas City something to talk about.
http://blogs.mercurynews.com/kawakami/2008/10/20/nolan-at-18-37-one-of-the-worst-55-game-coaching-records-in-nfl-history/
Bob, you think the owners should have given these coaches extensions too?
1. Dave Shula: 14-41 (.254 winning percentage) after 55 games with Cincinnati; fired after fifth season in 1996.
2. Bill McPeak: 15-37-3 (.288) with the Washington Redskins in his first 55 games from 1961-1965. Career 21-46. Fired after five seasons.
3. Dave McGinnis: 16-39 (.290) with the Arizona Cardinals in his first 55 games from 2000-2003. Career 17-40; fired after fourth season.
4. Marion Campbell: 16-38-1 (.296) with Atlanta and Philadelphia in the 1980s in his first 55 games. Career 34-80 in three stints, but never more than three seasons with a single team.
5. Harland Svare: 17-37-1 (.315) in his first 55 games with the Rams and Chargers in the 1960s and ’70s.
6. Mike Nolan: 18-37 (.327) after 55 games with the 49ers and counting.
7. Dan Henning: 20-34-1 (.370) n his first 55 games with Atlanta 1983-1986. Career 38-73 with two teams.
8. Walt Michaels: 21-34 (.382) with the NY Jets in his first 55 games. Career 39-47.
T9. Lindy Infante: 22-33 (.400) in his first 55 games with Green Bay. Career 36-60areer, fired in 1991. Two more years with Indianapolis.
T9. Chuck Noll: 22-33 (.400) in his first 55 games with the Steelers, starting in 1969. Career 193-148. (Made playoffs in fourth season.)
T9. Norv Turner: 22-33 (.400) in his first 55 games with Washington, 1994-1997.
T9. Gene Stallings: 22-33 (.400) in his first 55 games with St. Louis and Phoenix, fired in 1989. Career 23-34.
T9. Mike McCormack: 22-33 (.400) in his first 55 games with Philadelphia and Baltimore in the 1970s. Career 28-52.
T9. Vince Tobin: 22-33 (.400) with Arizona in his first 55 games. Career 28-43; fired midway through his fifth season, 2000.
T9. Ray Perkins: 22-33 (.400) in his first 55 games with the NY Giants. Fired in 1982. Career 42-75 with two teams.
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At least Landry had the excuse that he was coaching an expansion team. Herm Edwards doesnt have that excuse.
Since when does anybody “know” a NFL coach is “going to win it all” anyway, right Gretz? Fans need to siddown and look at what is happening to the team, whether Edwards is doing this or anyone else. If it is going in the right direction then, drumroll…. It’s going in the right direction!
I’m a recent transplant to KC and I can’t believe how this fanbase has become addicted to FA inflated season after season of wins and then the “2008 Patriots Veteran Flop” to end them all! Then they have the nerve to say they “know” how this team should be run while completely oblivious to the facts this team obviously drafted among the worst in the league for near a decade and hasn’t any decent players under 32! Where are the fans that should have told Peterson and Vermiel to draft good players for the past decade? Nadda. Cuz if you did say it back then, you’d either be rooting for another team by now or you’d know the changes taking place are far and away the best possible way to put this team on track to win big in the NFL and another stellar draft will seal this team’s fate for shot at the shiny silver football thing..
Siddown Chiefs fans and at least listen up to a guy that knows something you haven’t for years about this Chiefs team! Show some props to Gretz, you sniveling foolish know-it-all’s!!
findthedr, You are always such a hater!
I don’t get it…
You just wasted two pages of writing on this site! The comments about Herm and ruining the offence is rediculous. Everyone Retired and we lost our Offensive Coordinator…
This team was already in steep decline before Vermeil left. None of Vermeil’s draft picks panned out, except the one he did not want. The defense was always horrible and we were the oldest team in the NFL. While it all looked good on paper for awhile, Dick’s team was built for a one shot chance a success, just like the his Rams. You get there or you don’t, they did, we did not.
This team was doomed to failure and Vermeil knew it. Don’t get me wrong, I think he is one of the all time greats and should go to the Hall of Fame. But even he knew he was leaving a sinking ship. Could Carl have forced more decisions, sure, but you are still questioning a hall of fame coach who you want to trust, even if things are not panning out for the long term.
Since you just like to complain, complain, complain. I cannot wait to see your response when this team turns things around. Maybe a new team perhaps?
I don’t think Bob was saying you should stick with a couch, who currently has a losing record, just because sticking with him is a cool thing to do and it all may pan out later, making you look wise.
I think he’s saying if you have a couch you believe in, based on character, planning, leadership, football knowledge or whatever the case may be, then sticking with him through tough times just might prove wise in the end.
Though I’ve not made up my mind about Edwards’ yet, I can certainly see Bob’s point of view. I agreed with blowing up the roster and starting over from scratch, although I think they went overboard on the youth, essentially fielding a college team in the NFL. It’s been real, real ugly at times, but, o.k. There are other aspects of the Edwards-led team I don’t like, and hope they will change, but I still feel cautiously optimistic this plan can work. We’ll have a much better idea in 2009.
This is the only legit site I go to when I want to hear intelligent unbiased points of view. Bob what took you so long man…..this site is sick. I’m on board 100% with the youth movement. Everybody hates on herm, but nobody says jack about the last 5 years of bad drafting by the Vermeil regime. That takes a massive amount of time to correct, I love that Herm plays the players he drafts right out of the gate. That used to drive me crazy when Vermeil would draft kids, and not play them because he said they weren’t experienced enough. There is only one way to gain experience and thats to play ball. There has been some questionable things with this coaching staff; Game mgt., regression on offense and defense. But there is no doubt that his players play hard for him and I respect that. I don’t care what anybody says Herm should be given a shot to see this thing through to the end of next year he deserves that. Everyone is praising Chan Gailey for his innovative shift in offensive philosophy. But nobody is giving credit to Herm for hiring him. If my memory serves me correctly, it was him who said he wanted to hire an offensive coordinator who didn’t run a specific system, but one who could build a system around the talents of his players, mad props for that kind of thinking, b/c that’s how it should be. Keep up the good work Bob your obviously doing a good job b/c people are responding to your posts. In the mean time Aloha and how about a win this weekend for the boys!!!
Bob, great site, it’s one of the first places I go every day. I enjoy all you’re informed posts and the inside info that you give. I’m sure you must walk a fine line in providing us with info without being barred by management. I really think this year has been tough to watch as these young kids mature. Hopefully we can reap lots of benefits in the years to come. As to the coaching changes, I think CP will move aside as the GM at the end of this year. Then under a new GM we may or may not get a new coach. To all the Herm haters I would like them to post who would be the coach to lead us back to glory. As with any choice at coach, it all depends a lot on luck, good planning and having the right people in the right place.
Bob,
Please keep up your fantastic work! Providing the insights, analysis and those new podcasts are something not found anywhere but here and I for one, genuinely appreciate your efforts as do many others.
As it relates to Herm and his quest, I’m reminded of an old bromide that goes something like this: “Pioneers catch all the arrows and get slaughtered while Settlers get the profits.”
I’m hoping Herm gets his shot at some profits but it’s going to be tough to see him as head coach with a 1 or 2 win season but if he is, 2009 must surely be a turnaround year without question.
I agree a 110% Bob good points. And their is no such thing as luck to stick with a guy who hasn’t proved himself to be a winner. THats called having faith. Which is having the belief in something not yet to be seen. That is what Dallas ownership did with Landry and What Clark Hunt is doing with Herm. He’s having faith that this guy can turns things around. And we will see. I can remember after Thigpen played the Atlanta game a bunch of guys on here who I am not going to call out argued that he shouldn’t even be in the league.
I spoke up for the guy by saying hey it was his first start. I even used Peyton Manning 1 and 15 season and 28 INT that year as a example. But people bashed me for comparing the guy to Peyton and all I was comparing was their situations. Point is what Bob is trying to say the situation between Herm and Landry are the same. And truth is the guy has assembled a very talented team. The best group of young talent in this franchises history in my opinion. NOw to me its a matter of fixing the guys in the trenches. To me that is the only thing separating us from the elite teams in the league besides experience.
We need to get stronger and more talented offensive and defensive line. And of course a middle linebacker. I still say once we address those needs we will win the AFC west next year. We don’t need to change quarterback or anything. Just fix the problems on the lines and we will start to win alot of ball games. Right now we’re just good enough to beat the weak teams in this league Bengals, LIons, etc. Because they have the same problems we do. ONce we solve our line problems on both sides of the ball you’re going to see a much better team next year.
I think the comparison to Landry is a bit of a stretch. Picking one guy, who worked out, as opposed to the many who did not, is “cherry picking”. Not that it matters. Herm will be who he is and his legacy will be what he earns. I don’t believe he is the man for the job, but only because I don’t see a history of success. He has always been a piece of the puzzle. He was mediocre at best for the Jets. The best situation would be for him to turn out to be great.
Like to see you address poster’s comments, but wish you could do it more often. That makes the site unique.
As for being good enough to beat the Lions and Bengals…we lost to the Raiders and have 1 victory. Not sure that is a prelude to beating anyone.
After ICY , Im 2 MAD —
Okay. Now, you’re making more sense. Apparently, you didn’t lose your mind permanently. It’s good to know that the buffet manager held it for you and that there are still some honest food service workers in this country. Did they find it in the potato salad or the navy beans?
Anyhow, now that we’ve established that your brain is still intact, let’s take a look at your premise. Since we are in agreement that most, if not all, Chiefs fans prefer that history not repeat itself (the glory days of Dawson to Taylor down the sideline for 6 notwithstanding), can we not also agree that Herm’s “history” is one of utter and abject failure? He has, obviously, a track record of taking over teams and relentlessly driving them into the 9th circle of Hell, placing quarterbacks on IR, making clock management decisions that regularly qualify for ESPN’s blooper reel, and fielding an out-of-date, archaic, conservative coaching philosophy that the NFL deemed sufficiently boring 15 years ago that they began instituting rule changes that favored offense and scoring over punts and field goals.
I think you’re getting there, Bob. However, it looks as though work is still needed if we’re going to achieve a breakthrough.
Just keep this in mind … Herm took over a record-setting offense in KC and immediately went about the business of converting them into a cellar-dwelling gang of inept losers in less than 2 seasons (a remarkable achievement by any reasonable standard of measure). He has been active on the defensive side of the ball both in the draft and free agency in an aggressive, take-no-prisoners effort to produce the worst defense in the league. Under his extraordinary leadership, the team is either breaking or nearly breaking franchise records in things like consecutive losses, yards allowed, third down conversion failures, fewest points scored by adult players, and other statistical categories that would make Freddy Krueger recoil in horror. If the NFL kept records on mind-numbingly stupid 4th down calls from the sideline, Herm would certainly own that record, as well.
With that in mind, perhaps it would be wise for you to review Herm’s 2006 draft (players who, at this point, should be contributing, ascending difference-makers) and seriously consider the possibility that, since most scholars generally agree that “history” is written by the winners, Herm’s “history” with the Chiefs will be written by franchises like Denver and San Diego.
FAX
To address B in SC we lost to the Raiders at a point in the season where the team had no identity on offense. WE will play them next week so we will see then. If you’ve been following the Chiefs all season and watching every game like I have you would know we are a much better team now then we was when we played Oakland.
And as for FAX comments about the team Herm took over in 2006. That team was on the downside. If you followed the team we lost Shields,Roaf,Green, Holmes,etc. So the team Herm inherited was not the same team the year after. We had no new young fresh talent available to replace those guys thanks to Carl Peterson inability to draft well prior to Herm arrival. You make comments like that but you don’t tell the whole story. THe team was getting old and needed major overhauling don’t blame Herm for that. The team started regressing in 2005 10 and 6 then 9 and 7 in 2006 from 13 and 3 in 2004. So tell the whole story. Once again people like you would rather see Herm fail and the Chiefs lose versus seeing the team succeed with Herm as the head coach. AND for the life of I don’t understand it.
Keep up the great work bob…i love it.
And i fully understand why you don’t respond to all of the questions and ill-rhetoric on this site. It would be a never ending battle. They hate b/c they know no other way. Pesimistic habits formed by people who allow their habits to form them.
Soooo…..that Cassel article wasn’t handed down from one Arrowhead Drive either? That was just “your opinion”? we’ll see….
Yet another reason Herm must go:
“He’s an awful evaluator,” said one veteran pro evaluator with firsthand knowledge of Edwards’ personnel acumen. “First of all, he can’t stay awake long enough to watch the film. He’s one of those guys that can watch 15 snaps and then go off for a half hour about what the guy could or could not do for him in his system.”
I must say, I’m not a big Edwards fan. He is pretty condescending and I can’t imagine how arrogant he would be if the Chiefs were winning. He is using his media exposure to try and light a fire under the player’s butts BUT at the same time he is rubbing the fans the wrong way. At some point surely the players are going to get sick of being accused of being the sole problem.
He seems to be stuck in the 70’s style philosophy of football. Only until his feet are held to the flames does he then seem to reluctantly capitulate and consider throwing 3 times in a row. Shottenheimer’s time here wasn’t enough history to illustrate how not to handle an offense? Smashmouth is only as good as its passing game. You have to be able to throw effectively in order to spread defenses out and open up the middle. I’m in the Coryell camp. I do think a pass first type offense will open up the field for a running attack. Bottom line is you can’t be afraid to do either. Edwards strikes me as afraid to pass just like Shottenheimer was and look where it got him.
Hunt Junior here me now, PLEASE! Either Edwards opens up his mind to a more wide open offense or he’s just got to go. I agree with Whitlock. QB is still the position for the Chiefs to shore up. Draft #1 for QB and let them compete. Best man wins then stick with “˜em.
Ricky-poo go back to the star we don’t need ignorant opinions on here. First of all have you been watching Chiefs play we’re running a spread offense. What is more open than that. Second pass first teams don’t beat smash mouth running teams Giants over Pats. Yes you have to do both. But the ones that can run as good as they can past normally comes out on top.
And second the quarterback position hasn’t hurt us the last 4 games its been lack of pash rush on defense and inability to run in the red zone on offense because of the weak right side of the offensive line.
Just goes to show me you don’t watch the Chiefs play. You just watch highlights and read a few articles from what the media tells you and form an opinion. START WATCHing the GAMES.
I (and I think most fans) love the team (i.e the Kansas city chiefs). I have no loyalty to the new owner, management, or coaches until they show they are good stewards of the team.
I hate anything that stands in the way of the team or makes it worse. Herm Edwards has made this team worse. Under his supervision, the team has regressed in every phase of the game.
Bob,
I really appreciate your insights, variety of coverage, and indepth analysis of the team and it’s needs. Thank you so much for your support to us, the fans.
It is funny though, how so many are jumping to refute a claim you didn’t even make. I enjoyed the perspective you provided, which allowed the reader to make their own conclusions. Good job.
ED. Really enjoy your arguments and all through.
findthedr. I think we all are feeling the pain, but are just willing to watch the season play out and see what the outcome is, the way ahead, and the potential for a turn around next season. Any coach, including Cowher would have had the same problems as Herm after Vermeil left. The team was in a shambles. Herm is on the right track conceptually. If he can pull it off has yet to be seen, but I’ll give him credit for his courage and his ability to change his philosophy for the good of the team. We are a much improved team today, than we were weeks 1 – 3, even though the team has gone through a horrible (not Herm’s fault) attack of injuries. I do give credit where credit is due. At the end of this year, if we are not improved and it looks like Herm cannot complete the task he took on, then of course it will be time to discuss a change of coaches seriously. Until then, I’m behind the team, players, and staff, because they are the Chiefs.
Bob, again, thanks.
I wonder if it irks herm that gailey has taken a third string qb, horrible right side of the oline, backup rb’s turned the offense around WITHIN ONE SEASON, whereas herm has had THREE YEARS to get the defense up to par – so far Herm Edwards has drafted 9 of the 11 defensive starters when healthy (DJ and Donnie excluded, DJ by far being the best).
Herm Edwards has only drafted 2 of the 11 offensive starters when healthy (Albert and Bowe – and Herm didn’t want Bowe, he wanted Revis).
Our offense is vastly better than our defense right now. Are you guys forgetting that we used a first and a second for the two DE’s we have right now? Need I remind you of our position in league standing in pass rushing? Obviously drafting defensive linemen isn’t a strong suit for this team. I personally don’t want them to draft a DE in the first three rounds.
anyone still think herm is a defense and draft guru? i’d say all credit goes to chan for putting a somewhat decent offense on the field with all the QB injuries. the defense? how many picks have we used on the defensive line?
I don’t understand some of these responses. Bobby G. clearly explained he is not necessarily advocating an extension for Edwards.
The Chiefs obviously are bad this year – but this obviously was going to happen, given their rebuilding plan. In a couple years we’ll know if they were right. None of the knee-jerk opinions posted by readers have any hope of better success than sticking the plan through. Having endured one year like this one, I’d be reluctant to start over yet again next year.
I’d agree that Peterson has probably reached the end of his usefulness as a GM. However, we still don’t know about Edwards. Yanking him at this point might offer short-term satisfaction, but would be unlikely to trigger an quick improvements.
Six more games to go and I think this team may squeeze out possibly three more in my opinion but then again I might be wrong . Anyways as far as Herm goes I would dismiss him at the end of the season because this team needs with a new GM a new coach, and again I think he is too much of a buddy than a coach he changed his offensive style of late because he had to. But come next year if he is around he will go back to conservative boring ball. I think he also does not uphold responsibilty when it comes to losing he always has an excuse like blaming someone else I am sorry but maybe I may be deaf or living on another planet but have you ever heard him say I take full responsibility for this team losing this football game. Now I have heard him say that he was embarrassed by the way the team was playing but did he ever say I am responsible for that embarrassment. I have not heard it. Lets also stop with “Well we are a young football team.” Yes we all know that but install Focus and Finish in your young football team and yes you can tell the players all that and they have to go out and perform but right now they are a reflection of you as a head coach Unprepared , Too laid back, and Lack Toughness that right now are the Kansas City Chiefs.
Well lets remember before we go blaming Herm about the defense that we still have the same defensive coord. that we’ve had for the last 7 years and longer. Which during the last 7 years we’ve ranked in the bottom in total defense and in the bottom versus the run. There is somethign to be said about that two Gunther still. So don’t dump all the blame on Herm for the defense because he’s not the defensive coord. And if you going to blame him for the defense then give him credit for the offense because he hired Chan Gailey and he allowed Chan to change this offense to what he saw fit.
It once again amazes me how when everything goes wrong with this team its all Herm’s fault, but no one gives credit to the guy for when things go right. And that just shows me some fans just don’t like Herm it has nothing to do with his coaching. YOu bash for the wrong but no praise for the right.
And to stop the madness. What are you talking about I think everyone on here agrees the guy knows how to bring in talent. Flowers,Charles, Bowe, Carr,Bradley, and even Thigpen. He got the guy from the Vikings off of waivers. So please kill the argument about him evaluating talent. I questioning whether Gunther is using the talent correctly. ONce again I really feel like DJ is being under used and we’re not maximizing his talent. And I’m sure the same can be said about Tamba,Turk,Tank, and Dorsey. Can all these guys be that bad or is the defensive coord. not using them right. IT amazes me also how many of our former defense players go elsewhere and shine. Scott Fujita and Kawika Mitchell. And even Wilkerson for the Bucs.
Their is something to be said about that. Defensive coord. is the only coaching change Herm hasn’t been allowed to yet pick his own coordinator. So to me as long as this defense plays poorly I’m going to put this on Gunther because after 5 plus years of a bad defense he’s still here.
And Unprepared to laid back. Have you been watching the same games I’ve been watching. An unprepared team does not have a chance to win. AN unprepared teams gets the doors blown off like we did early this season. The last 4 games we’ve had opportunities to win. Thats not being unprepared. LEt me give all fans advice stop living and dying by every win or lost. You only going to drive yourself crazy and you going to make ignorant comments like that. Its just a game its not life and death. The team is struggling and I understand the frustration. Hell I have to go back and forth at the bars defending my team. But lets not make this bigger than what it is. Please don’t allow your emotions to cloud your judgement.
David S and Exiled in Minnesota makes good points. We shouldn’t overreact to this season or last year. Lets just see how things play out through next season. ONce again Herm doesn’t want to lose. Herm understands that losing gets him fired. So I’m preety sure he’s not trying to tank games. Here’s the deal his contract expires next season. We can’t change the fact Clark is going keep him until then. So lets just see where how he does between now and then. If he has another season like this he’s gone next year. And all the Herm haters were right. But let me ask a rhetorical question.
WHAT IF HERM HAS AN 9 AND 7 OR BETTER SEASON AND MAYBE WINS THE AFC WEST. WOULD YOU STILL WANT HIM GONE OR WOULD YOU SAY YOU WAS WRONG ABOUT THE GUY AND JUST BE HAPPY THE CHIEFS ARE BACK WINNING?
Random insight mine, seen through the prism deduction, nuance, paranoia & madness:
(1) “I’m a student of history. I believe in the George Santayana approach that he who does not study history, is doomed to repeat the failures of the past.”
- Bob Gretz ‘is’ Rufus Dawes
(2)”Context”
– Bob Gretz is ‘Josh’, or has been suffering through his droppings this blog…condolences
(3)”Jack Harry”
- yeah, and he’s ugly too…
(4) “I’m just a tool for Chiefs management”
- what does Chiefs managment have to do with this?
Rin Tin Tin is certain you ‘are not’ (as concerns kcchiefs.com) – so, nothing but perhaps a strange coincidence – except that on kcchiefs.com there’s a link that delivers one to this destination of – bobgretz.com… leaving no stone unturned, and no good deed unpunished.
Love your website Uncle Bob, whoever it is you are and no matter how many disguises you might don.
Don?…Fortune?
Ed explain to me why this football team has opportunity but cannot finish games and win. I know life goes on it’s not do or die with me in them winning football games but this team is 1-9. And do not use the we have injuries excuse yes they do have injuries but so does the other 31 teams. Ed you are a HOMER you know I used to be that way and I respect it but there is a problem of them not taking the opportunities they do have in football games. I do think that is a reflection of the head coach.So tell me your opinion on why they are not taking the opportunity they have in winning football games.
Well Vess i appreciate your opinions. Here’s why we’re losing this season we lost our starting quarterback and second string. Now we were fortunate that Tyler turned out not to be as bad as he had played in the ATlanta game. But me myself I don’t overreact to things anyway because I knew all alone the kid had talent it was a matter of him getting his accuracy right and decision making so unlike some people I gave him the benefit of the doubt after the Falcons game anyway.
Back to your question. Second whether you like hearing it or not our team has been ripped apart by injuries. Just like Carolina was a couple years ago when they were losing. Next we are a young team. Made up of 1st and 2nd year players granted if we had more veterans we might win 3 or 4 more games but remember this team is building for the future not short term. Short Term is what Peterson has been doing for 19 years as General manager from Montana,Bono,Grabac, and so on and it still hasn’t produced a Super Bowl. Bunch of winnning seasons but no Ring.
I’m not using injuries as an excuse because its true. What other team could survive having to start their 3rd string quarterback. And as many injuries to their defense as we had. Come on now be realistic with me. I’m not a homer. Personally i can care less about Herm Edwards I don’t know the guy. But I do believe inspite of the record this team is heading in the right direction. It remains to be seem yet if he’s the coach of the future but give the guy credit he’s brought in good players. Just like Dennis Green did for the Cardinals and now look at them now.
I try to be as fare as possible. I criticize Herm for his mistakes. Especially the year we made the playoffs in 2006. I bashed him constantly for the conservative offense he allowed Mike Solari to run. But when i saw how Trent Green almost died in the Bengals game because of the bad offensive line. I said “Expletive I see why we’re running the football.” Especially in 2007 man was that o-line bad. Dang near ended Larry’s career.
Anyways I’m like you if Herm fails I want him out of here. But I can’t jump down the guy throat because he has had some bad luck this season with injuries and the team is young. IF Brodie had played the whole season and not missed a game I probably would be a little more like how you feel. OR if the defense would have only had a couple injuries here and there I would agree you. But none of those things transpired.
And I say the team is young but they want be always. They’re getting that experience and I like what I see. Am I happy we’re 1 and 9 HELL no. But I see the potential in the team. Its not like we just have garbage players. At a few positions but for the most part we have some decent talent.
And why we’re not finishing games well thats youth. ITs kind of like what the Colts and Manning went through early in his career when they couldn’t never win in the playoffs. You have to learn how to do something. Football is about stages. You have to learn how to finish games. Then you have to learn how to win more consistently. Then how to win in the playoffs. But my thing is you see progress. Vess you can’t honestly say this team is not better now than the one that lined up against the Titans,Panthers,Raiders,and Falcons.
So that shows progress being made because they are better. NOw lets watch them learn how to win. And then the next step and then the next one which hopefully in the long run leads to a Super Bowl. Keep in mine if Herm doesn’t turn this thing around and we have 2009 season that mirrors this one he’s gone next year anyways, but give the guy a chance to prove himself between now and then and whatever happens happens.
Me personally I just want to see this team win no matter who the coach is. Or what philosophy they use I don’t care. I just want to see them succeed just like I know you all do. So lets just wait it out and see what happens.
Yes they are Ed and I do give Herm some credit on the roster there is talented players especially at the corner positions . And at left tackle but what bothers me the most about Herm and Carl is that they should of picked up a couple of veterans at key positions such as the offensive and defensive lines. You can rebuild but get a little veteran leadership. The guys that left were not leadership material more of dead weight but again there is talent but that talent has to learn how to finish football games.
Way to respond Bob! Keep up the great work. Like many of the readers have said, I too list this web site as one of my first to visit (and again in the evening it’s one of the last). I can not get enough of your web site. Your insight, knowledge and news on the Chiefs are awesome.
Despite 1-9 record, I see improvements! For your readers out there, do you remember last year, losing 9 in a row to finish the season? How many times did we see players going through the motions ? It was awful. I haven’t seen this in the last 4-5 games. These guys could easily roll over and play dead. But they aren’t. They are giving some good teams a run for their money. It takes time for young teams to turn the corners. I believe in the long term plan. Go CHIEFS!