Answer Bob About The Hall of Fame

The Hall of Fame process always draws a lot of attention and questions. I think that happens because the process is so behind-closed-doors that people are curious and/or suspicious.

After the 2010 voting session this is an attempt to answer whatever questions and doubts about the whole process there might be out there.

So here it goes:

MeninRed says: Bob, what happened to this – January 17, 2010 – “Bob Gretz: Many of you had nice compliments on the site and those are truly appreciated. Others had some questions about the site and yours truly. I’ve saved those because coming up here later this week; I’m going to have another Answer Bob post dealing entirely with the web site.” It never happened.

Bob says: It’s coming up, probably next week. Prepare your questions, comments, rants, etc.

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ThunderChief says: It seems to me that the standards for admittance into the Hall have been lowered over the past 10 years in particular but that’s highly subjective. I’m not talking about the Jerry Rices or Emmitt Smiths, but guys like Ricky Jackson or Andre Tippett. Has anyone thought about having a minimum standard of performance required before being considered? Said standard would have to be customized per position which might be difficult if not impossible. However, such issues as time played, number of times named to the Pro Bowl, plus a line on exceptional stats well above the norm for that position. All might be a good place to start. What say you?

Bob says: All I can say is that all the examples you used are used today in evaluating players for the Hall of Fame. Longevity of a career is a big factor in deciding on a player’s credentials. Pro Bowls have been a big factor although they are topped by All-Pro seasons. There are too many players who are eight time Pro Bowlers, who deserved about five of those and got the other three because of reputation. Stats are always one of the biggest factors, especially with defensive guys of the like of Jackson and Tippett. Both of those guys had the numbers. Standards are set based on comparisons with contemporaries.

Again, that’s one of the hard things about evaluating numbers for receivers and pass rushers these days. The passing game numbers have exploded in the last decade and what’s good and what’s great remains a moving target. That’s when the committee begins to look deep into the numbers for significant plays and achievements.

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Mike says: Floyd Little in the H.O.F ? What is this based on? Sure can’t be lifetime stats or a run of 3-5 historic seasons. Post-season performance, zero. Class of 2011 Earnest Byner.

Bob says: Legitimate questions about Little and I held many of the same when the Hall of Fame process began. But the committee is charged with evaluating and that means digging under the surface. Lynn Swann’s career numbers and longevity were not the match of most Hall of Famers, but his clutch performances and post-season play in the Super Bowl made him Hall worthy, although it did take him 14 years as a finalist. No player in Hall history came up for discussion more often than Swann before getting in.

Here’s the arguments that were made for Little. Unlike Swann, he was a great player on god awful teams. He did not play with a single offensive lineman who made the AFL All-Star Game or Pro Bowl; when he retired, he was seventh in career rushing yards. The six guys ahead of him had at least one Hall of Famer blocking for them. The Denver voter for the Hall, Jeff Legwold of the Denver Post, looked at all the game tape that the Broncos still had from Little’s career. He charted the runs and found that 30 percent of the time, he was hit behind the line of scrimmage on his run plays. As one supporter said about Little, his offensive linemen didn’t even have a football card, let alone a spot in the Hall of Fame.

Little played with 27 different quarterbacks in his Broncos career and that group threw 65 more interceptions than TDs. He was the Barry Sanders of his generation.

Watch Little on tape, which is something I did, and you see an explosive offensive force, who produced over 12,000 total yards in rushing, receiving and returning. Those who played against him – and I spoke to several including former Bills LB Marty Schottenheimer and Chiefs Hall of Famer Willie Lanier – thought he was one of the best backs in the old AFL.

More than half of his playing seasons were played when pro football’s hash marks were the same as college football. Before the 1972 season, the NFL moved its hash marks in to the point where they are today. That opened up the field for the running game. Little’s only 1,000-yard season came in 1971 before the change. That year there were five 1,000-yard runners. In 1972 with the change, there were 10.

As I’ve written before, the Hall of Fame should be about players who are obvious Hall of Famers, guys like Jerry Rice and Emmitt Smith. But the current rules of the Pro Football hall of Fame requires a certain number of players be inducted each year. Under those rules, I felt Little’s career deserved recognition.

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Mad Chief says: Who decides who gets to decide? As in, how did you get on the election committee? Are you elected? Appointed? Are members there for a “term”, or a set amount of time…or are you there for as long as you want to be? Do all teams have equal representation? Or are teams specifically NOT represented, in order to keep out bias (or try to)? Does it ever get “heated” during the process of voting? Any “FU’s” ever get thrown around…or guys getting in each others faces? Or is it all fairly peaceful and respectful? Thanks for taking the time again to do this. These Q&A’s are great! I have to echo what MenInRed said, though…I was looking forward to the one about your site.

Bob says: The people who run the Hall of Fame decide who votes. They try to find a media person in each league city that has a lot of experience covering pro football. The at-large members are selected based on their backgrounds and sometimes an attempt to even out the geographic scorecard. It’s an appointment without a specific term as long as you are covering pro football. That’s why there has been a lot of change on the committee in recent years because so many papers have “retired” their long-time columnist or pro football writers due to the economy. Each of the 32 franchises has a voter.

I’ve been part of the process for 14 years, and I wouldn’t say that the discussion has ever become heated, with name calling and the like. There is respectful disagreement and sometimes voices have been raised. The candidacy of former Browns-Ravens owner Art Modell and former Commissioner Paul Tagliabue were lengthy and sometimes heated. That’s one reason the Hall wants us to not repeat what’s said in the room, so everyone feels free to state their peace without their words coming back to haunt them in public. I don’t agree with that premise, but I abide by the edict because that’s the rules.

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XianDave says: Call me old fashioned, but I like the system. A combination of players and sports writers make selections behind closed doors. The last thing I want is for a network or cable channel to get the rights to broadcast the process and turn it into a circus. Save the cameras for the inductions. I enjoy the mystery and frankly I’d rather not see the warts. That said, what do you consider to be most important? Fame? Stats? Performance? Contributions to the game? I’ve heard radio commentators say that it is a Hall of FAME, not a Hall of ACCOMPLISHMENT. I couldn’t disagree more.

Bob says: I can’t imagine the current administration of the Hall ever allowing cameras into the meeting room during the discussion. I agree with you: it would turn the whole thing into a circus. As for the most important factor for induction, that’s hard to say because a Hall of Famer needs to have qualifications in many factors. Generally, I run through these considerations when judging players and not always in this order: contributions to the game, contributions to his franchise, recognition by peers and media, how good was he in his prime, how good was he in the clutch, longevity, statistics, success of his teams, testimony of peers, testimony of teammates.

As for the Hall of Fame vs. Hall of Accomplishment – there was a time when you couldn’t have fame without accomplishment. Those days are over for the most part as people who have done nothing or little sometimes get the headlines and the attention. Luckily, the Hall hasn’t reached that point. Yet.

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Gorillafan says: Do you receive any spiffs for being on the board, paid expenses for the travel, salary, or is it all just for fun? P.S., love it when you interact with us on your site. I too was looking forward to the one about your site. I know your a busy man though, THANKS

Bob says: No spiffs. No pay. No travel. I wish. All expenses are my responsibility; I do without quite a few things during the year to pay for the Super Bowl trip. About the only thing I like about the idea of the Super Bowl being in Dallas next year is the fact I can drive there. On voting day, the Hall provides breakfast and a boxed lunch and every year we get a gift of some sort from the Hall. This year, it was a golf shirt. The reason anybody takes part in the process is the honor of being part of a group with such an important job. It doesn’t take long being on the committee before you realize how being in the Hall of Fame can change a man’s life. I consider it one of the greatest honors and responsibilities that I’ve had in my 34 years of covering the game.

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Ron says: I cannot thank you enough for all the information you have given us. I wish more could be put in the HOF while they are alive to enjoy it. It is not the same to have their grandchildren present for the event, and not the one they are giving the honor to. Just wish the great ones could be there for this great honor. And yes I know that can’t always happen. Thanks again!

Bob says: Seeing over the years the emotion and impact of the Hall, I wish we had the foresight to see who would eventually get in and make sure each and every one of them was able to enjoy the experience. I was so glad to see Hank Stram get into t he Hall before he passed. I’m not sure that Hank had his complete faculties every moment he was in Canton that weekend, but I know he understood the significance of what went down. What a lot of people don’t know is that hours before the induction ceremonies, Hank was laid out on a coach inside the Hall of Fame and a doctor was called to look at him. But “The Mentor” somehow found the strength and made it to the event.

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Paul says: Is there a process to change the rules as to how many folks get into the Hall of Fame per year? I, too, agree that the minimum of players that get in every year is a bit high. Eventually, you’ll have to start voting players in that are just Very Good and not Great. Take Kurt Warner for example. He’s a very good player. His “donut hole” of a time where he was terrible (Lost his job in St. Louis, couldn’t maintain the starting job in NY) sits bad with me. However, I fear when his name comes up he’ll get inducted, simply because the players he’ll go up against aren’t as good and don’t really deserve to get in either. You have to look at the players that are in the Hall right now at that position and go, “Is this person Hall of Fame worthy like Joe Montana, Sammy Baugh, and Johnny Unitas?

When Warren Moon made it in, I was sick. There were plenty of other quarterbacks during his tenure in the NFL I could easily say were better than he was. So now I feel like the standard was lowered for quarterbacks. After Moon and possibly Warner make it in, who’s next? Bernie Kosar? Steve Grogan?

Do you think Will Shields will get into the HOF? If so, when? With all those Pro Bowls and consecutive starts one would think he would be a shoo-in.

Bob says: The more Hall of Famers required to get in each year, the bigger the pool of candidates – that’s something I don’t like either, but that’s not going to change.

Specifically as to Kurt Warner, there’s no doubt his candidacy will be seriously considered and I would expect him to be a finalist for the class of 2015. At this point it’s way too early for me to say he’ll be an automatic selection. There are parts of his story that are classic, but there was a dip in the middle of his career. He certainly deserves credit for surviving and then thriving again. And, don’t forget that he led two of the NFL’s worst franchises – St. Louis and Arizona – to the Super Bowl. That deserves recognition. But I’m not sure how we could put Warner in the Hall and completely forget Jim Plunkett who overcame a horrific start to his career and went on to lead the Raiders to a pair of Super Bowls.

Specifically as to Will Shields, he will be a Hall of Famer. When remains the question. I doubt he’ll be a first ballot guy, but there’s no doubt he has the career and accomplishments to satisfy just about anybody’s judgment for the Hall.

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PnS says: Thanks for the chance to pick your thoughts. To me the HOF has been watered down this past few years. Some of the reasons is players are playing a lot longer, thus causing a gap in HOF caliber players. So I feel in down years, don’t fill all the slots. Maybe go back & look at passed over players. While no fault of Little’s playing for the Donks his numbers are not HOF. You have opened the door for every player that (would of/ should have/if only) that has played this game. It’s the HOF for a reason; not everyone is supposed to make it. That’s what makes it such a honor when they do .Thanks Bob great site wish you would get a better response from your fans. You deserve it.

Bob says: I appreciate your kind words. I don’t disagree with not filling all the slots if the quality of the class doesn’t rise to that level. But that won’t happen. As I explained earlier, I believe that when you peel back Little’s numbers, you find a guy that in his time was a Hall of Famer caliber player.

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ObscureDave says: Trying to avoid being a “Homer”, but given George Toma’s grooming of all 44 Super Bowl fields (an amazing achievement), what are his chances of being elected to the Hall? I know they allow non-playing contributors membership but I believe they still count against the 7 inductee maximum. If so, I don’t see him making it. Your thoughts?

Bob says: George was awarded the Daniel F. Reeves Pioneer Award in 2001 by the Hall of Fame. This award was established in 1972 and is given periodically to an individual who has made a significant innovative contribution to professional football. Toma was the fifth winner of the Reeves Award, which has only been handed out seven times. Among the other winners were Steve Sabol of NFL Films and the great voice of Films, John Facenda. If anybody deserved the honor, it was George.

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SG says: Which “Old Timer” Chiefs have the best chance of getting in the Hall within the next 5 years, and really what are their true chances? Also, which modern Chiefs have the best shot of getting in…and what are their true chances?

Bob says: As for “Old Timer” I would say that Otis Taylor probably has the best chance, but it’s not a good one. The Chiefs have had two seniors gain the Hall in the last eight years: Stram and Emmitt Thomas. Believe me, that’s a lot; just take into account that every franchise thinks they have three or four players who have been overlooked in the Hall process. I know Taylor’s name has been discussed in the Seniors committee meetings and is always among the final names in the voting.

As for modern Chiefs, I would say Will Shields and Tony Gonzalez, along with Willie Roaf, if you count him as a member of the Chiefs, rather than Saints. Remember, that in the Pro Football Hall of Fame, players are not inducted to the Hall as a member of a particular team.