Accessing the Chiefs & 3-4 Defense
Like water trying to find a crack in the basement wall, news leaks out of the Chiefs in drips and drabs these days.
But it does leak out. The NFL Network’s Adam Schefter reported Wednesday that the Chiefs are switching to the 3-4 as their base defense. Schefter does not have a perfect batting record, but among all the network information men, he’s probably got the best average of correct hits. And he should, since he works for the home team, so to speak.
A switch by the Chiefs to a 3-4 defense wouldn’t come as a surprise. That’s what Scott Pioli knows, as that’s what the Patriots have run for years under Bill Belichick.
There’s nothing about the 3-4 that makes it any more effective than the 4-3. What makes both schemes work are the people playing on the field and the coaches who help train them. It’s the people, not the scheme.
But the 3-4 has gotten a lot of attention lately. One reason is the Super Bowl victory of the Pittsburgh Steelers, who have won two championships in four years playing the 3-4. Of course both Indianapolis and the New York Giants won titles with the 4-3 defense.
Last year, there were eight teams that used the 3-4 as their primary defensive alignment: Pittsburgh, Cleveland, Dallas, Baltimore, New England, San Diego, Miami and the New York Jets. Other teams have been experimenting with the 3-4, like Denver, San Francisco and Arizona, mixing it in with the 4-3 as the defense presented evolving looks. Green Bay has hired Dom Capers as its new defensive coordinator, and they are making the switch to the 3-4.
The Chiefs biggest problem on defense last year was poor play at linebacker. So on paper it doesn’t make much sense to change the scheme from three linebackers to four, when the team couldn’t find three linebackers last year.
When rebuilding a franchise however, going with the 3-4 makes sense for personnel reasons. The pool of athletes to play outside linebacker in the 3-4 are easier to find and in greater numbers than the classic defensive end in the 4-3 defense. Those guys are difficult to acquire and when a team does, it generally is going to cost them a lot of money to retain them. As evidence see a guy named Jared Allen.
Every year, there are dozens of defensive players coming out of college football who get tagged as “tweeners” because they fall between the physical norms for a 4-3 defensive end and a 3-4 outside linebacker. Those guys make the transition to a 3-4 LB a lot easier than a 4-3 DE.
On the Chiefs current roster, it’s hard to see a typical 3-4 nose tackle. Maybe the closest would be Ron Edwards at 6-3, 315 pounds, although he’s probably a few lbs. over that public number released by the team last summer.
Here are the physical numbers on the eight primary nose tackles from last season
| Team | Nose Tackle | HT | WT | NFL Entry |
| Baltimore | Haloti Ngata | 6-4 | 340 | 1st round ’06 |
| Cleveland | Shaun Rogers | 6-4 | 340 | 2nd round ’01 |
| Dallas | Jay Ratliff | 6-4 | 300 | CFA ’05 |
| Miami | Jason Ferguson | 6-3 | 312 | 7th round ’97 |
| New England | Vince Wilfork | 6-2 | 325 | 1st round ’04 |
| N.Y. Jets | Kris Jenkins | 6-4 | 349 | 2nd round ’01 |
| Pittsburgh | Casey Hampton | 6-1 | 325 | 1st round ’01 |
| San Diego | Jamal Williams | 6-3 | 348 | 2nd round ’98 |
That’s an average of 6-3, 330 pounds and Ron Edwards is the only guy that comes close to matching those numbers. Tank Tyler is 6-2, 306 and Alfonso Boone is 6-3, 305, although he probably plays at less than that weight.
Here are the numbers for the guys playing at defensive ends in the 3-4:
| Team | DE #1 | HT | WT | DE #2 | HT | WT |
| Baltimore | Trevor Pryce | 6-5 | 286 | Justin Bannan | 6-3 | 310 |
| Cleveland | Corey Williams | 6-4 | 320 | Shaun Smith | 6-2 | 325 |
| Dallas | Chris Canty | 6-7 | 299 | Marcus Spears | 6-4 | 305 |
| Miami | Kendall Langford | 6-6 | 287 | Vonnie Holliday | 6-5 | 288 |
| New England | Ty Warren | 6-5 | 300 | Richard Seymour | 6-6 | 310 |
| N.Y. Jets | Shaun Ellis | 6-5 | 285 | Kenyon Coleman | 6-5 | 295 |
| Pittsburgh | Aaron Smith | 6-5 | 298 | Brett Keisel | 6-5 | 285 |
| San Diego | Igor Olshansky | 6-6 | 309 | Luis Castillo | 6-3 | 290 |
That’s basically an average defensive end at 6-5, 300 pounds.
Guys like Tyler and Boone would seem more suited to playing DE in the 3-4 than nose tackle.
That means the current Chiefs defensive ends may become outside linebackers. Here are the numbers for the guys playing on the outside in the 3-4:
| Team | OLB #1 | HT | WT | OLB #2 | HT | WT |
| Baltimore | Jarrett Johnson | 6-3 | 270 | Terrell Suggs | 6-3 | 260 |
| Cleveland | Willie McGinest | 6-5 | 270 | Kamerion Wimbley | 6-3 | 260 |
| Dallas | Greg Ellis | 6-6 | 265 | DeMarcus Ware | 6-4 | 252 |
| Miami | Matt Roth | 6-4 | 272 | Joey Porter | 6-3 | 250 |
| New England | Mike Vrabel | 6-4 | 261 | Adalius Thomas | 6-2 | 270 |
| N.Y. Jets | Bryan Thomas | 6-4 | 266 | Calvin Pace | 6-4 | 270 |
| Pittsburgh | LaMarr Woodley | 6-2 | 265 | James Harrison | 6-0 | 242 |
| San Diego | Shaun Phillips | 6-3 | 262 | Shawne Merriman | 6-4 | 272 |
That’s an average of 6-3, 263, a profile that’s a lot closer to the defensive ends that are currently on the Chiefs roster:
- Jason Babin – 6-3, 260
- Wallace Gilberry – 6-2, 268
- Tamba Hali – 6-3, 275
- Andy Studebaker – 6-3, 248
- Brian Johnston – 6-4, 269
- Turk McBride – 6-2, 278
That’s an average of 6-2, 266 pounds.
There are seven linebackers currently on the Chiefs roster and the group averages 6-2, 237 pounds. The biggest linebacker is Derrick Johnson at 6-3, 242 pounds. Based on the guys that played the position in ’08, D.J. is hardly a prototype outside backer for the 3-4.
The Chiefs have used the 3-4 before. When Marv Levy took over as head coach for the 1978 season, the Chiefs made the move from the 4-3 to the 3-4. They were in that primary alignment through October of 1992, under head coaches John Mackovic, Frank Gansz and Marty Schottenheimer.
That changed at the end of September 1992, when the Chiefs signed free agent defensive tackle Joe Phillips. Within 10 days of Phillips joining the team, he was moved into the starting lineup and the Chiefs changed their base defense to a 4-3, with Phillips and Dan Saleaumua playing inside, and Neil Smith and Leonard Griffin at the ends.
Since then, the Chiefs have operated with the 4-3 as their base defense.
Now, the Chiefs may want to move to the 3-4, but if that’s the road they are going to travel, there’s going to be a lot of shifting, a lot of retraining and there are going to be players that may not fit, including last year’s No. 1 draft choice Glenn Dorsey.
The 3-4 is going to take a lot of work.
So, what happens with Dorsey then if the Chiefs go to a 3-4? Is he shopped at an obvious discount to other 4-3 teams?
Does he gain even more weight to play the nose at his relative short height? Convert him to an OG? The Chief’s record of drafting DTs in recent years has been less than stellar.
If the brain trust is set on converting to a 34 I don’t see any choice but to trade Dorsey.
I don’t think Pioli is going to worry much about covering up for the mistakes (not that Dorsey was a bad pick) of the past regime. He seems like a practical man, if the Chiefs have to take a bit of a beating in value, just have to cut their losses and do it.
I hope they have thought long and hard about this (if they have decided to change).
I too think the 46 is just as effective as the 34, if the brain trust thinks a changes needs to be made in scheme, I would rather them drop the Tampa 2 and go to a more man on man. Maybe change the defensive line scheme (did it have a scheme last yr?)
If we switch to the 3-4, our first round draft pick is virtually guaranteed to be the LB from Wake.
This is one I’m guessing Adam gets wrong. Our personnel is wrong for it, especially Dorsey. Both Gibbs ad Pendergrast have been running 4-3′s at their previous stops if one of them is DC.
Something tells me the DC is not on the staff yet, and the chiefs are looking to get someone specific thus they are waiting to name the DC. If they are not able to work out a deal with this person then they will settle for gibbs or pendergast.
Dorsey will be fine as a 3-4 DE. He has that quick step to penetrate, and now he will have some space working on the edge (instead of in the inside in a 4-3).
IMO, Tank projects well as a 3-4 NT.
strong: 42 bench press reps at the combine
low center of gravity
played around 330 his rookie yr.
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When it came to the bench press exercise, in which players see how many consecutive times they can lift 225 pounds, the 6-2, 320-pound Tyler was off the charts. His 42 reps was the most for any defensive lineman, or any player at any position, for that matter. The next highest total, by a pair of offensive linemen, was 40 reps. The next highest total among defensive linemen was 34 reps.
Like most of the players gathered in Indy in February, Tyler professed his willingness to play whatever role he was assigned. He said he felt comfortable playing in either a 3-4 or a 4-3 front, and believed he could excel either at the nose or in the three-technique spot. It’s telling, however, that he said he “likes”Âť to play nose tackle; many players favor the potentially more glamorous three-technique spot and its emphasis on speed and backfield penetration. Clearly, Tyler understands that many teams see the value in an immense and immensely strong man clogging up the running lanes and occupying multiple blockers in the trenches. He heard as much at the Senior Bowl in January.
“I had a couple coaches say that I’m a pretty good nose tackle, that I have a pretty good build for it,”Âť said Tyler. “A couple of coaches down at the Senior Bowl told me that my body is real good for a nose tackle. I like to be over the center. But I feel comfortable in both positions.”
Still, Tyler shed some pounds before heading to Indianapolis in order to show some of his potential suitors that he can handle a different role.
“A couple teams are looking at me for their nose position,”Âť he said. “A couple teams want me heavy and a couple teams want me light, so I kind of fluctuated my weight for the Senior Bowl.
http://www.buccaneers.com/news/newsdetail.aspx?newsid=5717
oh yeah,
doggie poo says herm’s the man!
I kinda addressed this 3-4 defense issue in december: http://fatchatter.com/forum/index.php?topic=752.0
I hope he is wrong! Dorsey is not bulky enough to play nose tackle and too short to play end. As was pointed out we did not have three NFL caliber LB’s much less four! A stud RDE and A stud MLB would vastly improve our D without having to rebuild the whole damn defense personnel wise. PLEASE NO 3-4!
i think the 3-4 defense needs to change its name to the 5-2. It is really 5 defensive linemen and 2 linebackers not 3 defensive linemen and 4 linebackers. would terrell suggs play linebacker in a 4-3? would Merriman? Woodley? NO!
are you serious when you say the problem was the linebackers? It was the dline. They couldn’t rip though a wet paper bag Bob. They were the worst defensive line in the history of the NFL. Their 10 sacks backs that up. I think that beat out the old record when they only played 14 games.
I know the Linebackers were not good either, but everyone knows it starts on the lines.
I wish I could find the article that ESPN or Sporting news did on the 34 vs 43 last week. The biggest difference was in disguising the blitz package. The 34 you can cover it up better by not showing who will blitz and who is going to drop back into coverage with the linebackers. The 34 tends to allow the personal to shift around easier to cover for the person going on the blitz. In the 34 you tend to move the blitzing player into position before the snap, thus alerting the other team on who is coming on the blitz package. I believe both systems can work equally well if you just have the right personal.
Talk to Dorsey and git a look at where he might think he might be a better fit .
Too often do teams cut some one with talent , only to find replacements are very – very hard to find .
I will weigh in on this one. IMO the players that we have now fit the 3-4 better than the 4-3. That is partly why our defense was so horrid last year. Now Dorsey was drafted specifically for the 4-3 and to try to make it better. I think that he would have, given more time. I think that Herm was trying to get the proper personnel for the 4-3 but just needed more time.
I think that Dorsey could still fit but expect his development to take a hit. I like Hali as that tweener guy and DJ would be a good fit for an ILB.
I also feel that it is harder to find the personnel for the 4-3. I don’t think it will take any longer to switch to the 3-4 than it would to find the proper personnel for the 4-3
My biggest concern for the switch is that we do not currently have on staff a 3-4 coach. I don’t know the extent of Gibbs experience or preference for defense but I am pretty sure that Pendergast is a 4-3 guy. Nick could be right that we are still looking for our DC
They call it a 3-4 because the Merrimans are not pure D-Line, they are like Bob said tweeners. They play both on and off the LOS. It is really a hybrid 5-2.
One last note. findthevet, it seems that everyone has moved on and let the Rin thing die, you must have missed the funeral but please let it rest in peace.
Great analysis, Bob.
My 2 cents: Dorsey could be moved along the line in a 3-4. He absorbed an awful lot of double teams last year and held up fine. Might be good to move him from NT to DE during games to take advantage of offensive weaknesses. Glen Dorsey can get a whole lot stronger, too. His conditioning under Herm was not impressive (plus, he was a youngster– his body can still grow, get stronger.)
Glen Dorsey is a total keeper. He should, in no way, be traded (unless the Chiefs get the moon and stars). Far and away, the most valuable resource Clark Hunt, Pioli and Haley have is the roster. Great players are irreplaceable and should not be traded.
Free Agency – sign Igor Olshansky.
Draft – Everette Brown or Brian Orakpo with pick #3 and you have your pass rushing OLB. Though, Curry would be an immense upgrade to the LB corps.
And, VIOLA! there you’ve got the pretty good makings of a 3-4 defense.
If Glenn Dorsey does not end fitting into the 3-4, I bet the Chiefs can trade him for a middle to late first round pick.
I don’t see them trading Glen Dorsey. I think the cap hit would be too big. They may have to look at him as a defensive end or bulk him up for a nose tackle. There was some speculation on ESPN.com that Romeo Crennell could still come here. One blog said he is not coming as DC, but may come later as a defensive consultant to Peoli. Another blog speculated that Crennell is still a possibility as D-Coordinator, because none was officially named. Perhaps he will be the D-Coordinator “in waiting”. However, I kind of doubt these reports.
Yeah, there’s a piece in the KC Star today quoting Haley as referring to Dorsey as an athlete that has some flexibility.
Niblick is right about cap hit; his unpaid signing bonus would come all at once. Chiefs would not get value for Dorsey coming off tough year, but it’s well-documented that DLs take time to develop. Don’t evaluate any DL after one year in the league.
3-4 is a 5-2, and there’s no magic to a formation. If we have the personnel, then giddy-up. I’d like to see the Tampa 2 die, but that doesn’t mean we have to abandon the 4-3 unless we like our personnel in the 3-4/5-2 system.