Thursday Morning Cup O’Chiefs
There’s been a lot of attention – rightfully so – on the lack of a pass rush from the Chiefs defense this season. The ‘08 Kansas City defense is on the way to setting new lows in quarterback sacking history.
But what about the flip side of the Chiefs when it comes to pressure on the quarterback? While the defense has been abysmal when taking down the quarterback, the Chiefs offense has actually done a good job.
That’s especially true in the last two months when the Chiefs have gone to a pass-first spread offense. This would seem to have exposed the pass protection, but that hasn’t been the case.
In the first seven games of the season, the Chiefs allowed 22 sacks or one every 11.8 passing plays. That includes the first game the Chiefs used the spread, against the New York Jets.
In the six games played since then, the Chiefs have allowed only 11 sacks, or one every 10 passing plays.
They are on a pace to finish the year with 39 sacks, which isn’t necessarily a great number, but a considerable improvement over the 55 they allowed last year. That was the second worst pass protection season in franchise history.
So why has the pass protection improved? First, there’s better talent at three of the five positions. Branden Albert is an upgrade over Damion McIntosh at left tackle, and McIntosh is an upgrade over all the bodies that played right tackle in ‘07 (Kyle Turley, Chris Terry and Will Svitek.) For the most part, Adrian Jones has been an upgrade over John Welbourn. Brian Waters has enjoyed a better season this year than last. Only center has not shown improvement. The Chiefs wanted a big center with the power running game and that’s one of several reasons they had no interest in re-signing Casey Wiegmann. Rudy Niswanger has done an OK job, but he’s not quite the style of what most teams seek in a spread offensive lineman.
The second reason the sacks have dropped is Tyler Thigpen, and not for the season most people believe. Quarterbacks with mobility, take off running when they feel pressure and tend to get sacked more than the pocket passers without mobility. Why? Because when they take off they start running around, trying to find a place to throw the ball and they run themselves in to sacks.
Thigpen hasn’t done that, and there’s a reason for that: he’s been warned away from running around looking to throw. That’s why you’ll notice these days when he pulls the ball down, Thigpen puts it under his arm and takes off on the run. He doesn’t look to throw. In fact, the Chiefs really wish he would look down the field more often when he breaks the pocket.
But he’s following orders and that’s cut down on the sacks and he’s brought a new dimension to the offense that the defense must account for when dealing out assignments. No team has gotten to the point yet where they assign a “spy” to watch Thigpen’s every move, but that may be just a matter of time.
The third factor is something else that offensive coordinator Chan Gailey and QB coach Dick Curl have worked hard on: getting Thigpen to make quick decisions. There are not many times in the last seven games where Thigpen has gotten rid of the ball in more than 2.5 seconds. It’s thousand one, thousand two and boom, the ball is gone.
Another part of the long-term discussion on whether this spread offense will stay with the Chiefs in ‘09 will be the offensive line. With Gailey coming in, the Chiefs were looking for big, maulers in the line, who could make the power running game go. If the spread is going to be the scheme, the offensive line needs to be more mobile, more agile, more along the lines of what the Chiefs had in the Vermeil Era.
No matter the future, the Chiefs pass protection has improved in 2008, especially in a time when more was needed from that group.
TOYS FOR TOTS
For the 43rd time, the Chiefs and the Marine Corps have joined together to hold the annual “Toys for Tots” collection this Sunday at Arrowhead.
The Chiefs have hosted Toys for Tots longer than any other NFL franchise. The Marines are asking that fans donate toys that are new and unwrapped for boys and girls up to the age of 13. This year they are in need of toys for the older children.
Fans can also make financial contributions by cash or check. Also this year, fans can simply test the word TOY to 90999 if they wish to make a $5 donation through their cell phone.
Members of the Marines 24th Regiment will be collecting the toys and donations as soon as the stadium gates open at 10 a.m. through kickoff at 12 noon.
FROM THE PAGES OF CHIEFS HISTORY
On December 11, 1966, the Chiefs beat the Miami Dolphins 19-18 at the Orange Bowl. Two fourth quarter touchdowns by the Kansas City offense pulled this victory out on the road in south Florida. Down 11-6, Curtis McClinton scored on a 49-yard run with 11 minutes 16 seconds left in the game. Mike Mercer hit the PAT kick and the Chiefs led 13-11. Miami came right back and scored a touchdown, going back up 18-13. But the Chiefs came right back and went 12 plays and 72 yards for the winning score, a 25-yard pass from Len Dawson to Chris Burford.
On December 11, 1995, the Chiefs lost to the Miami Dolphins 13-6 in a Monday night game at Joe Robbie Stadium. The Miami defense simply dominated this game, as the Chiefs did not get on the scoreboard until the fourth quarter when Steve Bono combined with WR Webster Slaughter for a five-yard TD pass. The PAT kick failed. Miami managed only a pair of Pete Stoyanovich FGs and a three-yard TD pass from Dan Marino to O.J. McDuffie. The Chiefs turned the ball over three times. Defensively, Neal Smith had a sack of Marino, while safety William White had an interception.
SAY HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO …
A group of former Chiefs are celebrating birthdays on Thursday, starting with wide receiver and special teams ace Danan Hughes (left). Born on December 11, 1970 in Bayonne, New Jersey, Hughes spent six years (1993-98) with the Chiefs and played in 85 games. He caught 46 passes for 425 yards and four TDs, but was a dynamo in the kicking game.
Also born on December 11 in 1958 was former offensive lineman Rick Donnalley who played two years (1986-87) at Arrowhead and appeared in 22 games.
And enjoying birthday No. 33 is defensive end Vonnie Holliday, who spent two seasons (2003-04) and 25 games wearing a red and gold uniform. He finished his Chiefs career with 5.5 sacks. Holliday is in his 11th NFL season this year, playing for the Miami Dolphins. He has 3.5 sacks for the Fins.
OPPONENT NEXT/SAN DIEGO CHARGERS
Rookie Jacob Hester has been working at fullback and enjoying his time there, plus other notes from ChargersLand.
AROUND THE LEAGUE
Pacman Jones’ return to the Cowboys was a short one; it looks like he’s done for the season because of a neck injury.
Clinton Portis and his head coach Jim Zorn have buried the hatchet, and it wasn’t in each other’s heads.
AROUND THE REST OF THE AFC WEST
This one is hard to believe: Raiders fans have the second-most best menu available to them in the NFL according to the folks at PETA. No, I don’t make this stuff up.
Denver QB Jay Cutler is just 321 yards away from hitting 4,000 passing yards this season.
I like our o-line going into 09 if Thiggy’s back there cuz he can flat run! The spread has worked great for us! I wouldn’t be suprised if you see teams like the Bengals and Lions switch to it next season.
This article is a little self serving for the chiefs. It is a team sport and cannot be really effective unless all segments are contributing to the whole. The chiefs are just a hole. The offense is better because of Thigpen’s style of play, maybe, we need to see what happens when teams are used to seeing this style. Def. Coor. eat up team that cannot operate multiple offenses, they are thinking about how to stop the spread as we write.
Special teams is even looking better. But when you look at how they played at the beginning, better is not saying much.
Defense THE PROBLEM. No better than the start of the season. Good reason to fire every coach except Chan. This team is like a one armed guy in a fight. Vermeil was one armed with offense, herm should have been one armed with defense but does not even produce all his own draft picks. Fire most of these stiffs.
I am sane enough to know it will not happen but I can dream. Besides they will be gone after 2010 anyway. There is no reason to believe they succeed based on what they have done this year.
tm1946,
I’d have to say most of the D coaches need to go, but Price and Modkins have done an acceptable job at this point. Bicknell FINALLY has the O-line operating at an average level, and Chan is on again, off again.
As for Dick Curl, Krummrie, and Gun, they need to go, not that we’ll see that happen before the end of next year.
Fire Guther and Krumrie, yes they both have alot of heart but neither has the ability 2 teach and and instill confidence n our defensive players. Herm should stop feelin sry and having faith that these coaches will somehow find a resolution 2 why our defense hasnt progressed and regressed. B/c at this point thier ways of teaching are clearly old school and doesnt work in this league anymore, it’s time 2 upgrade our way of thinking on defense…b/c, I see alot of talented young players hungry and playing thier guts out just hoping thier def. coor. has put them n the proper position 2 make plays!
You folks know more about the coaches than I. But herm has been here for yearS, what is he doing about the defense, let the coaches and players fail, nothing more.
Alex you see “talented” players, who? You have to have seen something I have not. Can they play in the NFL, yes. But they look like journeyman type not starters. I cannot recall one outstanding play made by any DL this year. Last sunday the Denver QB was not touched ONE time the ENTIRE GAME. Talented players I think not. Well coached maybe not. But where is herm? And if they had any real talent they would by luck make a play once in a while. I just throw in all are high draft picks by herm’s choice.
I want to talk about the “Rebuilding Project”Âť for the coaching staff.
GM – Marty Schottenheimer
Head Coach – Bill Cowher
Off. Coord. – Chan Gailey
Quarterbacks – Brian Schottenheimer (He would like to be part of the “family reunion”Âť)
Wide Receivers – Eric Price
Running Backs – Curtis Modkins
Tight Ends – John Embree
Off. Line – Joe D’Alessandres
Def. Coord. – Dom Capers or Dick LeBeau (Whichever is available)
Linebackers – Gunther Cunningham (He would be able to coach what Bill needs from his linebackers)
Def. Line – Kurt Schottenheimer (He usually goes where Marty is)
Def. Backs – David Gibbs
Special Teams – Anyone of proven experience and success
Players are only as good as their coaches. This coaching staff would be TOTALLY on the same page.
Comments?
Brandon Albert has been a real nice addition. The first few weeks with the ankle were scary, but the injury bug seems a thing of the past. Brian Waters has had a good season, too.
The Chiefs pass protection has improved. Important has been Thigpen’s ability to stay healthy. It is luck that Thigpen has the age and body-type to take hits, but give him credit for his ability to move. The QB being healthy week-to-week is now taken for granted– no one is holding their breath about that situation anymore.
Michael Merritt to Def. end———Brad Cottam to Fulback ?
This is how Denver finds all these special players !
Not bad Robert, but I don’t know why there are so many people around town who think that Marty can be a GM. Carl let Marty pretty much build the roster in 1997 which produced a 13-3 season but then it fell apart into a 7-9 season in 1998 because Marty brought in too many guys with character issues like Andre Rison, Wayne Simmons, and Bam Morris.
If Herm is retained for 2009 (which he probably will be) then how about dumping Krumrie and hiring Rod Marinelli to replace him? Rod will certainly be fired by Detroit at season’s end and he was a dynamite D-line coach in Tampa Bay when Herm was coaching there under Dungy. Rod could potentially teach Glenn Dorsey and Tank Tyler the techniques necessary to make Warren Sapp-like plays in the middle of the line. A new defensive coordinator would be great with me too and right now, my first choice would be Jack Del Rio, who I’m betting won’t be the HC in Jacksonville next year.
Got to revamp OL from center over to the right.
Got to have better talent at DE. I totally agree with an earlier post that a young person with talent will flash it at least once in awhile. I’m not seeing much of that.
I believe our scheme on defense is somehow flawed. I see NO penetration & disruption by DL. We keep hearing that the DTs are to take up space & let LBs make tackles. BS!!! The LBs are the least talented people we have on the D & you’re trying to rely on them???? Gimme a break Gunther & Herm! Gimme the days when Dan Saleamua used to blast through the gaps & stuff a guy in the backfield! That’s what Dorsey should be doing. If you wnat to tie up double teams with a space-eater, why did you draft him?
6′7″ Full Back???
LB’s would destroy his knees.
Jim Lloyd
I don’t know about DE, but I’d read in more than one place that Merritt has the pure strength and frame to bulk up another 20-30 pounds and play on the offensive line. He’d have an entire offseason to add the weight the right way and a former TE with superior feet to most career O linemen would be a nice fit in the spread potentially.
If we want to run the ball down hill, and run multiple off. schemes how about an OL coaching change? Art Still was a hell of a player, has a proven track record as a OL coach. (chiefs….)
And who better than a HOF player to coach?
(food for thought)
We really don’t seem to have an identity as a defense, do we? It seems the Chiefs defense operates in a gray area between Tampa-style and traditional coverages.
I think our ability to evaluate LB and safety talent has been, and will continue to be, hampered by indecision as to how we need them to play. And, as Tim pointed out, this has had ramifications for the DT spot as well.
Former HOFers have had little success coaching history says. I do not care who the coaches are if they succeed or at least show they can improve players.
Moving guys from off. to def. should be kept to college. In the NFL you are supposed have studs playing the game, not just gifted athlete who have to find a position to play. Dream on. I would rather have a guy who knows what he is doing before the chiefs have to find him a position (ie Hali replacing Allen, carl, herm, Gunther may have tried to sell us on that but it did not work out so well now did it?)
Robert,
Your’e joking right?
Having a 6′7 TE like Cottam play FB might (more so probably would be) a ’stretch’, but there be exceptions to every so called rule.
They talk of taller offensive lineman not bending at the knees but ’stead at the waist, but as they say necessity is the mother of invention – so you dance with who brung ya to the dance – even if he or she does have two left feet. You can look for a better pairing come next free agency/draft day.
Not so unlike KCs spread offense Thigpen, et al, though personally I think he’s a keeper. In fact, he is right now playing better than ANY young QB who has ever come through KC, Lenny Dawson having already been 28 when he got to KC in ‘63. Thigpen is too small, too small school – too this and not enough of that…and yet, just look at him go.
Morris Stroud was a 6′8 3/4 TE for KC (listed him at 6′10, but he was not.) But for real exceptions looked into signing a guy for TE back in 1967 who would’ve made Stroud look like a point guard: the Mentor Hank Stram was serious – alas, the 7′1 1/8 player was not as…Wilt Chamberlain. Later that same season Hank sprung PR listed 5′8 163 lb. but in reality 5′6 1/2 154 lb. jet Noland ‘Supergnat’ Smith onto the AFL. A pro football record 106 yd. kickoff TD one pleasant return said. If you never saw Smith think of Darren Sproles of the Chargers (Smith was even faster but with less wiggle.)
That was back during a time when innovation was prevalent on the Chiefs via Stram; he later that same summer took a trip over to Europe to scout potential kickers, this even aft the Chiefs had signed Jan Stenerud. Stram came up with K Horst Muhlman (who later played with the NASL KC Spurs soccer team) & also K Bobby Howfield…both went on to have brief pro football careers with other teams.
The Chiefs under Lamar Hunt & Hank Stram as well that great crew of talent evaluators (Klosterman, Bobby Beathard, Lloyd Wells et al) used to be on the ‘cutting edge’ of finding guys who broke the mold as it were. No more – or least nowhere near the extent once was the case … the rest of pro football caught up, & has left the Chiefs in the proverbial dust going on some 40 years now.
Getting back to QBs if they’re not too small and short then they’re too tall and big, so say some. OAK has a 6′6 QB who looks gangly (much as a 270 lb. man can); a young Joe Flacco is also in that 6′6 range & Drew Bledsoe the only former QB tall enough to overcome his majesty afield, 6′5 or so. Several have been 6′4 – 6′3 though but for every 6′6 success (numbering been zero to date), there are more failures – Matt Blundin anyone?
Flying in the face of convention size-wise might be tantamount to a MLB team having a left-handed throwing infielder – none for several years now, though were many going back to the early 1900’s.
Never say never, just hedge your bets…copiously.
In the meantime -
Keep up the great work Coach Edwards. ALL of KC is behind you and we know that you will lead us back to glory very soon now.
AND NOW, Clark Hunt has RE-affirmed Herm’s The Man!
Wiegmann would have been perfect for the spread offense.
Anyway, O line is still crap.
Tyler’s mobility, the spread, and quick passes have limited the sacks. When the chiefs go back to conventional formations (such as red zone running plays) it is obvious the oline still needs alot of improvement
Alex…..
I also see talented players on the defense, Leggett, carr, flowers for sure.
Tm1946….
I remember on a few occasions turk mcbride 20-30 yards downfield making plays and i only get to watch chunks of games, only watched one entire game all year at home against denver and thats just cuz i live close to donkey land. Yeah maybe the play made downfield was result of the ball carrier running through the whole team, but i have seen some nice things from the DL. Dorsey is doing a decent job. If anyone expected him to come in here and dominate with 10+ sacks then they were delusional. These youngsters are only going to get better.
Bob,
I know I am somewhat late with this message, but I need to comment.
I am so very disillusioned after finding out about the “Tony Di Pardo”Âť band being let go over the stadium renovation. They were very much a big part of the Chiefs and to be told there isn’t any room in the “inn”Âť for them is WRONG. The
“Di Pardo”Âť band has been with the Chiefs since the 60’s.
The team has been in discord 2 & 11. The season ticket holders have to pay for the renovation and last season the ticket holders almost had to pay a seat tax and now the “Music of the Chiefs”Âť will be gone after the Dolphins game.
Is this part of the rebuilding? How very sad!
Brenda, It is sad that tradition be DAMNED, for the sake of putting a few more dollars into the Hunt family fortune.
I was shocked at the announcement that the Chiefs are going to sell the naming rights to Arrowhead and how little OUTRAGE or barely a ripple of mention or protest from fans and media alike.
Maybe because there is no way anyone will buy said naming rights for yrs to come (Given the state of the economy and the Chiefs lack of success on the field) But one day the name “Arrowhead” will be gone or drastically altered.
And that day too will be SAD.
Bob,
Any discussion of moving Niswanger to RG or RT? I have felt all year that part of Thigpen’s early struggles were because of his lack of height and Rudy’s excess of height. It has to make it hard for him have unabstructed sight lines. Why not try Wade Smith at center for the last few games and Have Niswanger at RG? They would retain his power for the running game, but clear the lanes a bit for Thigpen.
Rin must agree with Brenda – shazam – a first!
I sent Tony DiPardo’s daugher an email with same sentiments as Brenda. Like everything that goes by the wayside, the question becomes one of why?
Thi$ an$wer mo$t u$ually.
I also want Warpaint the painted pony to return – Bob Johnson may not be available but someone else would be.
Too, George Toma is missed: for any KC fans not old enough to remember you have no idea outside aged grainy film how great the old playing field at Municipal Stadium used to look.
Those beautiful golden/yellow endzones with the multi-colored AFL logos, the markings afield at the hashes/numbers & the midfield running Chief logo.
I once asked Carl Peterson why the Chiefs do not any longer paint the fields as such…and do you know what he said? He laughed – & (paraphrasing)
said “the players don’t like paint on the field or in the end zone…it makes them slip.”
Really?
$ signs danced through my head in reaction to his answer…because a) that’s how he $ee$ things in my opinion & b) because having watched the Chiefs since their inception – including the 1967 season when that end zone paint first went on in total I don’t recall any rash of slipping & falling down by KC’s or any other teams. This was verified to me by more than one former player – both on the Chiefs and their opponents – paint is not a big problem.
Try again Carl? Nevermind.
At any, maybe by 2010 when the new renovations are fini, some nod toward the past will return.
No, doubtful.
If for politically correct raison the ‘Running Indian through the four states logo’ cannot be returned, & for economc$ the DiPardo band too, doubts be serious that those beautiful painted end zones will likewise.
We have & continue to lose all our traditions as it were.
We still have that KC Wolf thingy though . . . marvelous; him and that Krazy George character sure are/were wonderful…huh.
Oh and one last thing: I weant to see the Chiefs go back to the LARGER helmet arrowhead they wore back in the 60’s – it stands out even more which is a good thing. Why not? It’s tradition not any thing new.
I’d also personally lose the sleeve stripes, lose the red clown pants they wear on the road, and go back to the all white look- making sure they wear the red socks on the road like they used to – the white socks with white pants & jersey is too much white. Contrast, style – and aesthetics don’t you know. KC doesn’t, apparently.
Gray facemasks – black cleated & even white spat wearing shoes ala Fred Williamson, Frank Pitts, Ceasar Belser, et al. Trash the lighter style mesh uniforms materials in lieu of the heavier knits of yesteryear that don’t breathe as well – it’s football dadgumit- let em sweat! But always remain stylish.
The San Diego Chargers 1960’s powder blues are STILL the best looking uniforms in pro football history my opine.
AFL, history, tradition. Bring it back to KC Clark Hunt; otherwise I’ll…not like you any more – even though you are bringing back Herm Edwards. You RE-affirmed it.
When I was a kid of 10-11 yrs old I loved War Paint, It was the coolest thing to watch, in my mind at the time he knew exactly what had transpired to earn him the full gallop onto the field and smiled proudly.
To: Rin
From: Brenda
Thank you for your comments and “Happy Holidays”.
p.s. We can agree to disagree, I for one am not a Herm fan.
Brenda
If Hank Stram were still available today, I would not be discinclined to see Herm take at minimum a back seat, or if it came to said a nice $everance package & extended one-way vacation.
Alas, as Hank is not and Herm is, well…grin & bear it. Herm isn’t Hank but is also not Frank, as in Gansz.
People blamed Stram for years- perhaps rightfully so- that he wasn’t a good coach. He had all those players – “the best in all of football” according to many. Hank said no, not the best…but yes to the fact KC had several great ones.
I suspect that circa 2008 it’s much the same with Herm, difference majorly being that he hasn’t the horses in even as great a number as had Hank- his coaching be a result said much as anything else.
Who is not surprised Edwards went away from his fascination with the all out two runs a swing pass & a punt offense – shades of Paul Hackett – and embraced Gailey’s spread? Who says that an old horse can’t change its spots?
Rin has lived through Peterson’s, Steadman’s, the Ganz’s, Wiggin’s and the rest…guess I’ll stick around a bit longer just to see what might happen.
JohnNdallas
Part of this failure to let teams & players “do their own thing” as twere while still regulated majorly by the almighty dollar is also a result the nature of/demeanor human beings circa 2008.
Tho younger owners & blood is starting to appear, the NFL is still populated by an old boys network & as such is still want to be run like a military
exercise if you will.
“Hurry up and wait/hurry up and wait” i.e., they like order, and appearances are everything. I am past the midway point in life, so have seen what once was & now what has come to be. I do not like the modern athlete’s ‘I’ persona when it becomes more than the ‘game’ I love. Rin likes to clown too – NO! – yes, but there is a time and a place for said as Lenny Dawson once said. The football field is neither the time nor the place. If Rin wants to watch clowns he goes to the circus (or reads his own writings.)
What the NFL’s done is gotten things so spit and shine they are to some extent taking the fun out of things. Aye, but that’s the double-edged sword and the rub a twere: where the ‘line’ tween what is taste and crass, debased & baseless, start?
Always remembering that $ be the thing, – for all concerned- owners, players, fans- other whys too for the NFL stopping the pratice ‘individuality.’
Like letting players wear odd numerals on their jersey (C Jim Otto who wore OO, DB Obert Logan wore 0), QB Otto Graham wore #60 before going to a more QB-like numeral the opine those wielded the say so…there are many other examples. Is it because it’s easier for radio/TV spotters to see?
No, such conformity and lock-step is a matter of etiquette, discipline and stomping individuality.
Not a bad thing in premise, but in practice can become boundless in an enthusiasm engendered by the wielders staff of righteousness.
Alas, to give freedom is to also see it taken advantage of at another, today’s uber and over celebratory players to blame for a tight reign and fines etc. the league casts for acting like (my opine & the NFL’s too appears) horse’s rear ends. That’s old school thinking and again old school still rules the NFL roost.
Still, if there was a bettrr way, might see some of the old things brought back…the AFL was so much flashier & fun & intersting to watch than the old NFL. Those days may never return again appears, sadly.
I would have to agree, with Nintendo and all the other modern day “bedevilments” the simpler things are lost.
Even network coverage of games suck anymore. No time for breaking down plays the way guys used to.
Take last Sundays Chiefs game for an example, there were on two different occasions when one of denvers O-Linemen was knocked completely backward planted firmly on his kiester, heels almost over head, not one mention, or replay, I remember a day when that would have been showed from at least 2 different angles in “super slow mo” and the offender and victim both discussed, praised or snickered at.
But some how the networks sold the NFL a crock that the fans were loosing interest because of the length of the game.
I say BS.
Things change but not always for the better. I am afraid it might be we are getting old (better than the other option).
When you look at it, are the chiefs (and the NFL) still a lot of fun?? Not really. Maybe that is why clark h. is looking past us for the next generation of fans?
Food for thought and meaningless to say the least – since herm got here, he started the rebuild but what if anything has he done to make the chiefs better in the eyes of the fans??? I guess you could say he may have put the initial building blocks for the future chiefs in 5 or more years, just maybe. The offense is due to Chan and Thigpen. Special Teams are improving but not terribly good. Defense is a bottomless pit with one or two pieces but more misses than hits. So just what has herm brought to the chiefs??
Well, I like Herm a lot. I think he is a good man (sounds like one atleast), seems honest, awesome CB back in the day, great motivational speaker but he’s NOT, I repeat NOT, A HEAD COACH!!
Herm Edwards is great for the young guys. WHY??? Because he can relate to players. He can hold their hands and walk them through the game from a former players perspective. There is something he keeps saying, from the beginning of the season to now, that is, “theses kids are learning from the Vets.” That’s great Herm! He should thank God that Brian Waters is still in Kansas City. He better pray that Tony doesn’t leave. The problem, people, starts at the top. Carl gave Herm the go ahead to blow up the team. I agree the team needed a major face lift, but that doesn’t mean getting rid of Allen, holding L.J. back, and making the vets play big brother to the rest of the team!
This team is held back by Carl, and Herm! I’m not gonna wet my pants like Rin Tin Tin because Carl says Herm is going to stay! Until the Chiefs hire new staff offensively and defensively to help Herm Coach, and hire somebody to keep Carl from the disposing of talent, Herm will keep the Chiefs at an average place! I don’t care if they are 2-11. This chiefs team is not bad, they are always a couple of plays out of it! (thanks Herm) So lets pick up some defensive players and play some damn football! Go CHIEFS!!!
One court of opinion might be Herm is spinning his wheels – just like Vermeil did… watching Dick’s offfense was fun – watching his defense was like water torture.
If anything, our present offense is closer to Vermeil’s than Dick’s defense was to this one 2008. Agree or disagree, the upshot of it all remains the Chiefs have been also rans: – two playoff appearances via the two aforementioned coaches in the last eight years now.
Not (as) bad more so different paths taken but same ultimate destination the more revered for some Schottenheimer took KC to a similar number of Superbowls during his tenure as Herm/Dick – zero.
“Yeah but, yeah but, he took us to the playoffs regularly”…big frickin whoopdy doo. He was & remains a loser still today, as in KC so too in CLEV & SD. Thanks for playing Marty. We’ve some not so nice parting gifts & shots for you. NEXT!
In this the Chiefs have not had a Head Coach any since one Hank Stram; I’ve never shared joy some do at the mere mention the name Schottenheimer.
Also rans come in many shapes, sizes, colors & persuasions…in the end one is no better than the rest, if the ultimate judgement is did any lead their team to the promised land? None did beside Hank, KC.
Bad luck? Fate? Poetic justice for the sins they embraced (conservative offense some, swiss cheese defense the others? Who cares. Same difference.)
“Yeah but we got close”… w o w…have a cigar.
All the pretty pictures engendered by Vermeil his offense, by Schottenheimer his defense equated in the final analysis to bupkus same – no matter how much one likes this scheme, style or personality more than the others.
The only Head Coach KC has EVER had who put both the elemsnts of offense & defense together in a Championship package was Hank Stram. As such any every other since Hank has been a failure, here.
39 years since Trophy, 34 too since Hank…SAD.
Wiggin, Bettis, Levy, Mackovic, Gansz & Marty S. Cunningham, Vermeil & Edwards all of one accord.
They tried…they all failed to date, at any.
Happy now? I’m not. Forget everything I just said.
Go Chiefs?
Jorge- i hope you aren’t under the impression that the chiefs were going to be able to keep jared allen. His ego was huge. He’s a good football player but no one is worth having if they aren’t a little humble. Besides he told the chiefs 2 years ago he wanted out. Problems with Carl Peterson I’m sure. Kind of like the same problems John Tait had with him. Holding LJ back? The only one holding LJ back is LJ. I agree with you on some of the stuff you said. Still holding out on what herm is though.
To Rin:
Where would you put Marv Levy in the KC coaching history? While he didn’t have great success with the Chiefs he did have some and he had a ton in Buffalo sans a SB victory. Some would say Lamar gave up on him a little quick. What does Rin say?
Larry says:
“Rin Where would you put Marv Levy in the KC coaching history?”
- another also ran…Levy was 31-37 in KC – with two 3rd place finishes – one fourth and two more 5th place finishes- this in a five team division.
“While he didn’t have great success with the Chiefs he did have some and he had a ton in Buffalo sans a SB victory.”
- he was better than Wiggin, but I wouldn’t call Marv’s time here a ’success’. In Buffalo through his first 27 games which put him into his third season there (due to NFL strike) he still had a losing record there too.
BUFF’s roster was full of fine young talent, plus Jim Kelly came over from the USFL in Levy’s first season so Marv had a lot of clay to work with and mold, whereas in KC he had such very poor talent, especially on defense, the guy had to resort to running the wing-T offense to bleed the clock & keep his porous defense off the field as much as possible.
“Some would say Lamar gave up on him a little quick. What does Rin say?”
- Levy did eventually get to the Superbowl, four even – and came away empty handed each time – in this he’s better than a Schottenheimer by virtue having gotten there but no better as when he did he lost and will like Marty ultimately be judged as having fallen short.
How much were the losses his fault, any? Enough so that his name bears the 0-4 coaching tally – like a Bud Grant ever to be known as the man who could not get it done, fair or not.
Hunt started going through coaches like they were hot potatoes after Stram left – more accurately a Steadman did or influenced Hunt as he was the man in charge. Stram was here for 15 years – and then Steadman/Hunt went through 5 coaches alone in the next 14 years.
Much like Peterson has gone through 3 coaches in the last 10 years now since Marty left after a 9 year run…the similarities or panic be eery.
Was Hunt before and Peterson since too impatient? A matter of opinion. The most obvious thing to me remains the fact the Chiefs have been a disaster since Hank left, whether you want to credit Hunt, Steadman, Peterson or all three for the honors as it were. My opine, almost 40 years is too long to call it mere chance. I call it a history of poor management because Rin does not believe in Karma. While we were extolling our attendance victories the rest the NFL counts its Superbowl rings. Much like Nero, Carl has been busy fiddlin, my opine.
The more interesting factoid to me is those who have left KC and went on to success elsewhere – the list includes a Levy as you say, also a Bill Polian who was in scouting here & now has a Super Bowl ring with IND whom he’s ablely led for many years now. Bill Cowher was here and led PITTS to success (although it took him about a decade & a half to finally win big.) Even the nascent coach Mike McCarthy led GB to the Title Game last year & there are some others.
Impatience, luck or a definite pattern/trend of letting the wrong people go? Fact remains shy a Stram KC has won nothing; dumb luck? You decide.
For the most part the offensive line has improved more so because of the style of offense we run and adding Albert to left tackle. We still need a right guard and right tackle.
Defensively the secondary is fine. Probably the best collection of young talent at that spot in the league. But running Cover 2 we need some defensive ends that can get after the quarterback. I hear guys like tm1946 banging Herm for his draft picks, but for the most part most of the guys he’s brought in has panned out. Bradley,Bowe,Thigpen,Carr,Flowers,Leggett,Albert, Charles, even Robinson is showing good signs as a return man. Mcbride and Tamba haven’t had a good season this year. But hey you can’t get them all right he’s only human. As for Dorsey and Tank they will continue to get better.
But going in to the draft we definately need to upgrade with possibly drafting two defensive ends and an linebacker. Either outside or inside pending on how Derrick works out in the middle. I’m still on board with a change at defensive coord. I here everyone banging on Herm for the defense which as regressed, but keep in mind we were ranked in the top 15 in league his first 2 years here. So the guy knows defense. I think having to trade Allen to improve other areas on the roster has caught up with us this year and never really finding a solid middle linebacker getting Napolean Harris never panned out for us. That being we need to improve our rushing ends if that happens I think that will open things up for Dorsey and Derrick next year and will make a good secondary even better. People forget at one point in the season we were #1 in takeaways with the lack of a pash rusher.